Uncooperative Lifting Keel Foil

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Uncooperative Lifting Keel Foil

Postby admin » Wed May 25, 2016 5:41 pm

I'm trying to get a grip on what's happening with my keel foil. Last night was the worst experience yet with trying to get the damn thing back up.

First off, it never went all the way down....it got fussy with about another 4-5 inches left to go into the Down position. This was a bit of a tell...I had a feeling that it was going to be a pain getting it back up.

Then, when we were putting the boat away, it was a total nightmare getting it back up (so that I can haul it out on to the floating dock). I was about to give up and let the boat live tied to the pier for as long as it took for me to go back down and work on it...when, finally, it came up a few inches and we were able to wrestle it all the way up.

I'm wondering if, with all the rain and high humidity we had, it maybe swelled up a little bit. We have had an unusual string of cold, wet weather, like about 5 - 6 weeks of it with very little relief. Gray, drizzle and showers punctuated with the occasional downpour.

The keel is laminated strips of white oak, covered with 2 layers of e-glass (and a strip of carbon fiber) and totally encapsulated in this epoxy/glass layup. The top of the foil (which faces the weather/rain) is edge-filled with epoxy and a couple of coats of poly-U paint. Can moisture still penetrate this and cause wood to swell?

If I have to, I'll carry or keep at the dock a 2x6 that I can turn on edge and use as a lever to get the damn thing started. Also a better 6:1 lift system, as I have a totally inadequate vang system now that's just 4:1

My thoughts are to take a sander to the foil, grind off a few mil of paint and filler and then spray coat with Sailkote. But I still think it's weird that the thing used to deploy easily all the way down, and something is stopping that from happening. Any thoughts or advice?
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Re: Uncooperative Lifting Keel Foil

Postby Tim Reiter » Sun May 29, 2016 6:48 am

How difficult is it to inspect the inside of the case for rub? Sorry for the suggestion but it could be there.
T
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Re: Uncooperative Lifting Keel Foil

Postby micah202 » Sun May 29, 2016 7:16 pm

.

...worked fine initially(?), now jamming!? ...strange problem.

I know when I first got Carbon Offset, a major item I wanted to change was the foil-shaped sleeve. Other than the inescapable damage possible with a grounding,, the blade would -easily- bind with any change in fore-aft orientation, and cause jams similar to what you describe.

..of the active boats out west,, I don't think there are any that use the tight fitting sleeve.
I really recommend people use alternatives for the reasons above.
i550 #240 ''carbon offset'',vancouver,BC,Canadah
......please be surre to user a resperarator ,espectially doing largger areasa of epoxy.
.....utherrwise,yerulll endap takling uhnd rithing rike ah do--NAHT GUD,ehnytime
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Re: Uncooperative Lifting Keel Foil

Postby lohwaikin » Mon May 30, 2016 8:53 am

I have the same keel jamming issue although the keel is guided by wooden inserts glued to the top and bottom of the keel-box. These inserts have a tunnel in the shape of the foil with about 2mm clearance all around. I lift the keel by main halyard, and it's not exactly vertical. Lowering the keel is never a problem. But I can feel and see the jam during lifting. In my case, it can be easily solved by tapping the keel headstock with a hammer's wooden end at every heave. The jam occurs at the trailing edge under the keel head-stock. It's only required at the first foot or so of the lift, thereafter it's loose enough to fully lift the keel (all 4+ feet of it) by hauling at the 4:1 purchase appended to the headboard end of the main halyard.

Maybe I didn't make my keel section uniformly.....

2013-06-09-10.JPG


2013-03-16-6.JPG


Cheers,
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Loh Wai Kin
Hull #437 "Big Bad Wolf"
Singapore.
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Re: Uncooperative Lifting Keel Foil

Postby admin » Mon May 30, 2016 12:57 pm

Good stuff, thanks everyone! Tim, I'd have to tear out a panel and then reinstall it, and I'm not quite that desperate yet. (although close). Couch, I think you are right, it's an alignment issue involving the sleeve....which gets me back to square one ripping out a panel of the keel box to get to the sleeve and remove it. Looks somewhat inevitable, I guess.

One thing about the system you are using, Loh. Seems like water is going to get insde the keel box and remain there and take a long time to dry out. That'll allow growth of mold and algae and other critters depending on what's adrift so to speak, in the air in everyone's particular venue. So you've got this kind of damp space and seems like eventually that'll begin to soften up the structural units, which are also uninspectable, due to being inside the box. Did you glass the inside of the box super-well so that trapped moisture is not going to be an issue?

Just curious....I'm thinking that yes, this winter that sleeve is going to be history. In the meantime, I have ordered a second scissors jack to use in tandem with the first one....sit each one on either side of the foil, run a bar across the two jack with a line attached to the eye atop the keel and use the jacks to get the thing started. Like you say, Loh, once we get the thing started it comes up OK.

Thanks again for the feedback, fellows!
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Re: Uncooperative Lifting Keel Foil

Postby micah202 » Tue May 31, 2016 2:54 am

..here's what I came up with...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/59103003@ ... 6076955693

...1st 2 pics,, click on picture for descriptions.

The extra space was filled by poring 2 part foam into bags around the keel ;)
i550 #240 ''carbon offset'',vancouver,BC,Canadah
......please be surre to user a resperarator ,espectially doing largger areasa of epoxy.
.....utherrwise,yerulll endap takling uhnd rithing rike ah do--NAHT GUD,ehnytime
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Re: Uncooperative Lifting Keel Foil

Postby Tim Ford » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:35 pm

Cut some new acetal™ guides and hope to get them glued in this week (if it ever stops raining). Using a specific adhesive called SA-2100 and have to "torch" the plastic prior to installing.

This should be fun....

Delrins July2017.jpg
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Re: Uncooperative Lifting Keel Foil

Postby Warren Nethercote » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:59 pm

I am thinking of using guides, but cutting a foil-shaped hole in the bottom to minimize flow in and out of the box. With a relatively tight fit only at the bottom is there hope of less 'stiction'?
Warren Nethercote
Boutilier's Pt, Nova Scotia
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Re: Uncooperative Lifting Keel Foil

Postby Tim Ford » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:04 pm

I think I still have a pretty clean entry at the bottom of the hull, so I'm hoping that won't be a restriction/friction point.

I did hear that orange is fast...

orange juice.jpg
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Re: Uncooperative Lifting Keel Foil

Postby admin » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:53 pm

Yesterday I finished up the keel box repair, can't wait to try these puppies out soon.

Delrin zinn.jpg


We're back in bidniz, baby!
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Re: Uncooperative Lifting Keel Foil

Postby admin » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:43 pm

I discovered a LOT of delam on my keel foil, soooooooo....I have to face up to the fact that most of the skin has to come off.

Ugh. All that fairing and e-glass and CF.

BUT: I figure the delam may have part of my issues with trying to raise the keel. And, also, I am heartened by the fact that the white oak lamination looks intact and did not seem to mind all the drama I put the foil thru during the past couple of years.

So yeah, some quality time with an angle-grinder and some aggressive-grit sander, then back to hanging e-glass and CF on a chunk of wood :roll:

keel GRIND1.jpg
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Re: Uncooperative Lifting Keel Foil

Postby micah202 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:43 pm

...yah,, delam would cause such an issue. Any idea of the cause?
i550 #240 ''carbon offset'',vancouver,BC,Canadah
......please be surre to user a resperarator ,espectially doing largger areasa of epoxy.
.....utherrwise,yerulll endap takling uhnd rithing rike ah do--NAHT GUD,ehnytime
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Location: vancouver BC

Re: Uncooperative Lifting Keel Foil

Postby admin » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:45 pm

Yes, cause was most likely poor adherence to white oak.

I learned after the layup that white oak should be heated to a certain temp, and then hit with a tie-layer of pox. Let the pox cure, wipe off the blush then hit it again with another coat. Use something fairly aggressive on the 2 coats of pox, like 150 grit, THEN lay on the e-glass skin.

Curse of the amateur, you learn what you need later sometimes, and then you never use that knowledge again.... :lol:
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