Rudder Issues

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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Chad » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:30 pm

Tim Ford wrote:any drawings of how they built their cassettes?

I'd use the Solo method, or close to it, based on the materials you have available if you don't want to do the full Flying Foam core-and-saddle procedure.

http://www.single-handedskiffs.com/imag ... ssette.pdf

I550 rudder loads and cassette loads will be just less than double the Solo's loads, so use double the reinforcement he uses.

Here's a comparison of the loading on the two rudders:
Rudder laminate design-1.pdf


Note he specs 24 oz of cloth on his rudders, and the spreadsheet computes 27 oz needed, so that's a bit of a confirmation that things are close.
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Tim Ford » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:49 pm

Thx Chad!
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Kevin » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:04 pm

If you want to go the flying foam / pourable urethane gasket route for the cassette then you can use a negative skin thickness allowance and the same profile as your rudder. This will result in a core large than you foil's exterior finished dimension. You can make the cassette. Remove the core and then pour a gasket between the rudder and the cassette. I currently have cassette part laminated but haven't gotten past that stage yet. I think I may have gone too large on my cassette, and the difference will be more pourable urethane, which is the same stuff they use to make flexible molds.

Kevin.
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Chad » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:17 pm

And to do it without a foam core, you can use your rudder for the mold, mebbe wrapped in 1/4" cork first, wrapped in packing tape, then peel ply (nylon sport fabric), then your cassette layup, peel ply, absorber (diaper, t-shirt cloth, or polyester batting), wrapped in plastic or mylar, then squooshed with some sorta firm foam (minicell, cheapo white EPS). You'd use clamps over the two cheeks of foam, compressing and letting the foam deform to the foil shape.

If you use something like cork against your rudder/mold, you'll have room to do the Spartite/urethane pour thing.
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Chad » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:47 am

So here's an i550 builder's rudder foil which shape he doesn't want to disclose, but since he posted a pic I figure it's fair game to reverse engineer :D

KevRudder.jpg

(I've stretched it vertically about 15% to make up for the angle of the camera, as well as rotated it to level)

So what do we know:
It's about 10% thickness.
It's little finer up front than a 64 series, but still has its max thickness very close to 40% aft.

Have fun back in your boat shop, Kevin- good to see you busy on the boat again!
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Kevin » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:20 pm

You can guess all you want. I'm not disclosing exactly what foil section I'm using out of respect for the person who shared the information with me in confidence. No need for any of us to get into legal issues regarding intellectual property rights. As my actions of the past have proven, I rarely try to hide anything for competitive advantage.

I'm hoping to get the core put together this evening. I need some glue to hold the foam to the planks, what I was going to use was setup solid as a rock. I'm thinking I can use pins to hold the core pieces together and down to the outer part while the epoxy sets up. I was going to use micro fibers for strength and flexibility and silica to thicken my epoxy.

Anyone else confused by Joe's comment on my blog and why he sliced his rudder cores horizontally. If it was hollow, I'd understand the need for the supports, but the foam should provide the support of the skin and the spline is at max width prevent crushing and it has quite a bit of hoop strength with the uni/cloth/uni/cloth lamination schedule.

Kevin.

I made the planks from 3/4" MDF and they are excellent but heavy. I may need to add a support block to my stand so that they don't break the core after I add the skin layup.
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Chad » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:06 pm

Kevin wrote:You can guess all you want.

Naturally! ;)


I'm hoping to get the core put together this evening. I need some glue to hold the foam to the planks, what I was going to use was setup solid as a rock. I'm thinking I can use pins to hold the core pieces together and down to the outer part while the epoxy sets up. I was going to use micro fibers for strength and flexibility and silica to thicken my epoxy.

I used "Gorilla" glue to glue the saddles to the planks, a little dab every foot or so, then some small weights to hold the saddles down while it sets.

To glue the cores to the spline, I imagine you'll want to use a mixture that will be fillet-worthy, since those radii are probably going to be filled in the process of gluing together the spline. So yeah, a microfiber/silica blend is good. (For simple core to "other stuff" bonding, a mayonnaise paste with Microlight is fine- it will vastly exceed the strength of the foam. The idea there is to reduce the foam's absorption of higher density material, like straight epoxy. This should be used as the first step before laminating the skins to the foam, for instance.)


Anyone else confused by Joe's comment on my blog and why he sliced his rudder cores horizontally. If it was hollow, I'd understand the need for the supports, but the foam should provide the support of the skin and the spline is at max width prevent crushing and it has quite a bit of hoop strength with the uni/cloth/uni/cloth lamination schedule.

It's pretty rare (!) to see an I-beam where the web is a bunch of segments turned sideways to the beam. But maybe Joe has discovered a new engineering methodology?

There is a setup used in woodworking primarily, called a torsion box. Basically make an egg crate type grid of thin stuff, and then bond thin skins top and bottom- sort of a primitive form of cored construction. It's a nifty way to make fairly large panels, pretty light and pretty strong. In the case of a rudder where the skins already meet at the front and the back, those lateral webs just become redundant. And in a small rudder with carbon skins, torsion along the blade is not the mode of failure- by the time the rudder is strong enough to not bend, it can't help but be over-built in torsion. Unless you use nothing but 0 degree uni...


I made the planks from 3/4" MDF and they are excellent but heavy. I may need to add a support block to my stand so that they don't break the core after I add the skin layup.

Yes, I did the same thing when I did mine. The tip of my core was very small, and I was very worried about breaking it off- I ran a couple 4" screws through the end plate into the core to help. But the whole thing sways and shimmies a bit while you apply the cloth- it's nerve wracking. I would wet out the cloth on a table before applying it to the core, if I did it again. The Solo method of brush-wetting the cloth in place is pretty crude, I think.
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby admin » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:30 pm

Interesting. It's going to be an education to see how these things last and who's breaks first! Guess who's coming to Break First. I suspect it will be mine. I've totally re-thought my rudder. Gonna forget the cassette, too much hassle. I figure with the tiny outboard motor on a bracket that'll be enough to get up to water that's deep enough to ship the rudder. I have no illusions that trying to seat a floating rudder into two holes is easy, but I've done it before on different dinks and you just develop a technique that centers mostly around cussing.

I put yet another layer of CF on the beast last weekend. If I didn't take photos, I'd lose count.

IMG_0469.JPG
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Kevin » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:00 am

Tim,
Rudder looks good. Nothing beats the look of clear epoxy on carbon. It's just flat out awesome. I played the cussing at it while you mount it game. It's fun, especially with a particularly buoyant rudder. I'm thinking the foam cored one will be even more so than the very heavy one I'm replacing. My 220lbs sitting on the transom while attempting the installation probably help the fun factor as I sunk the bottom pintle well below the water line. Add in some short choppy water because it's blowing 10 kts out of the north and it's the best possible experience.
Of course there's the drag your rudder up the launch trick too, that's where you go to get the trailer, and as you pull the boat out the person you left on the boat realizes they didn't raise the rudder. Not good on the tip :-).

Chad, the bottle of gorilla glue I had on the shelf looked just fine until I picked it up and realized it was completely solid. It's been too long since I used any obviously. But that will change soon as I have lots of wood working projects planned for my basement shop. I'll pick up a new bottle on the way home tonight.

Cheers, Kevin.
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Chad » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:03 am

Go Tim! Progress, progress!

I tuned up this rudder from Phil's Foils two summers ago:
J30Rudder.jpg


It wasn't a 00xx series, a little closer to what Kevin is using, but I never pulled a template from it. It worked amazingly, even at high AoA's, even at high AoA's and high speeds :mrgreen:
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Chad » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:18 am

admin wrote:Interesting. It's going to be an education to see how these things last and who's breaks first! Guess who's coming to Break First. I suspect it will be mine. I've totally re-thought my rudder.


Since building my rudder last year (or whenever it was?), I've run numbers against it a couple times and I suspect I'd be more comfortable with another layer or two of CF as well. Just another project to squeeze into the ol build schedule.
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Kevin » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:00 pm

You are supposed to fix things after they break. If you fix things before they break, you'll never finish the boat, and thus never find out if you built it strong enough in the first place.

Finish your boats so we can go play :-).
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Kevin » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:37 pm

Some success over the weekend on the new rudder. A note about some choices I made because of this thread.

I added additional carbon down the rudders max width. This was to really beef up the rudder at the critical lower gudgeon where the loads are the highest. Here is my layup schedule for those interested.
Flying foam cut core from spyder foam.
Spline down the rudder's max width made from 2 layers of -45/+45 degree bi-axial e-glass. Cut to fit and filleted to rudder core with a 3/32" radius minimum.
Skin layup from the inside out... twill is 5.8 oz 2x2 carbon. uni is 6.7 oz uni carbon.
1. twill - full length.
2. twill - 25" long cut on the bias (so this is -45/+45 essentially)
3. uni 27" x 6" strip at max width
4. uni 33" x 4.5" strip at max width
5. uni 39" x 3" strip at max width
6. uni 45"
7. uni full
8. uni full
9. twill full
10. twill full

Resulting skin has...
70oz skin thickness at the max width at the waterline. Tapers down the rudder.
39 oz skin at leading edge in the rudder head
34 oz skin at leading edge in body of rudder
30 oz skit at leading edge at tip.

Put full uni and twill on the out side to help blend any transitions in layer thickness as much as possible to minimize fairing.

More to come soon. Need to pay the bills for a while today.

Cheers to all, especially Chad who helped me work out the layup so we don't go crack again.

Kevin.
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Chad » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:52 pm

No pics. Must not have happened!
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby M&S » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:40 pm

Something that occurred to me is the idea of building in Compression preventers in form of epoxy plugs and / or Bronze bushings to keep the straps on the rudder from compressing the core/ deforming the skins at the rudder head area.

Thanks for sharing the layup sched.
tr
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby admin » Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:09 pm

M&S wrote:Something that occurred to me is the idea of building in Compression preventers in form of epoxy plugs and / or Bronze bushings to keep the straps on the rudder from compressing the core/ deforming the skins at the rudder head area.

Thanks for sharing the layup sched.
tr



gonna need a drawing on that one, for we of the "Words Don't Work School of Learnin' " ;)
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Kevin » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:55 pm

The point of the spline down the max width of the foam core is to protect the core from compression loads at the cassette to rudder interface. Bottom of the cassette will be the highest load, top of the cassette will be about 1/2 the load that's at the bottom.

If I was mounting hardware, it would be excellent to put hollow out and fill those areas before you laminated the skin on. You just have to hit your marks when you drill it afterwards which can be fun :-).

Picture below is the core hung in the stand waiting for glass. I used a little gorilla glue and long screws to hold it in place. The middle support was too high and I had to pop it out to get the bottom clamps on. I'd recommend the glue as insurance. Mine wobbled by didn't fall down.

IMG_0367-1.JPG


And here is the rudder clamped together and starting to cure and ooze.

IMG_0370-1.JPG


Cheers, Kevin.
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby ryderp » Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:13 pm

I've fabricated the rudder foil and am planning on making the cassette using the foil as the form for vacuum bagging pretty much as outlined in the solo guide that Chad posted. What is everyone using for gudgeons and pins? I noticed that Shazza has a nice one piece welded aluminum mounting plate. also, any ideas on a way to apply pressure on the rudder foil so that I can sail with It partially retracted in shallow water?

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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Chad » Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:45 pm

I'm using some Racelite dinghy gudgeons on the transom- 2 at the bottom, one up top. They receive a 3/8" pin.

The next bigger size is probably J24 gudgeons, which use a 1/2" pin and 1/4" bolts. These would be bombproof for an i550.

Ideally, use a full length (ie transom height) piece of G10 tubing, bonded to the leading edge of your rudder or cassette, then wrapped (and wrapped, and wrapped!) with multiple layers of uni. Then cut out slots where your transom gedgeons need to go.

Then use a full length piece of 3/8" SS rod that gets inserted from the top.

APS page for the hardware I described:
http://www.apsltd.com/c-107-pintlesgudg ... heads.aspx

G10 tubing and SS rod available from McMaster-Carr.
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Kevin » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:34 pm

I used a kite pole of appropriate size for my tube. It's carbon uni and there for making a hole, not really to be the final bushing but it works out ok anyway.
wrapped a 12" piece of uni around the tube to make it bigger around.
added a 6mm spacer between the cassette and the tube and filled/faired that into the cassette body with some high density filler.
wrapped the whole lot with uni tape and biaxial tape, which was a waste, uni is easier to work with and more to the point put's the fibers in the most needed direction.

I used sea sure fittings that take a 5/16" pin.
I'm using a single 5/16" rod and transom mounted gudgeons.
The cassette goes above and below each fitting for added strength and to keep the pin from bending under load and going all wrong. This was an issue on Shazza I believe it was so I added the tube below the bottom and above the top for added security.

I also added "wings" to the side of the cassette to translate the rudder load to the gudgeons so that the cassette would not warp or loose integrity. It's pretty bomb proof now.

Kevin.
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Kevin » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:34 pm

I used a kite pole of appropriate size for my tube. It's carbon uni and there for making a hole, not really to be the final bushing but it works out ok anyway.
wrapped a 12" piece of uni around the tube to make it bigger around.
added a 6mm spacer between the cassette and the tube and filled/faired that into the cassette body with some high density filler.
wrapped the whole lot with uni tape and biaxial tape, which was a waste, uni is easier to work with and more to the point put's the fibers in the most needed direction.

I used sea sure fittings that take a 5/16" pin.
I'm using a single 5/16" rod and transom mounted gudgeons.
The cassette goes above and below each fitting for added strength and to keep the pin from bending under load and going all wrong. This was an issue on Shazza I believe it was so I added the tube below the bottom and above the top for added security.

I also added "wings" to the side of the cassette to translate the rudder load to the gudgeons so that the cassette would not warp or loose integrity. It's pretty bomb proof now.

Kevin.
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby slowpoke » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:06 pm

Been a while since this thread had any traffic, but I wanted to put it out there that I will be using a dual rudder setup. I think the trick is going to be lifting the leeward rudder whenever in light air, or while sailing downwind. I've been looking at catamaran rudders, and I like the setups that have a bungee that applies pressure to lift the blade out of the water. The blade is placed into the down postion when you pull a line and lock it in a jammer cleat. Just before tacking or jibing, pull the line and lock it in place, tack or jibe, and release the line on the now leeward blade to allow the bungee to retract it out of the water. This is the setup used on the NACRA cats I've looked at, it looks adaptable to me. Any thoughts? 8-)
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Chad » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:58 pm

DBSS tried the doubles, using pro-made foils, then tried cutting them down, then decided they didn't work. I think he's no slouch (one of his guys is a pro sailor), so I took his example to mean that getting doubles to work on an i550 would be really tough.

From the little sailing I've done with double rudders, it's like sailing a giant garden rake if there's ANY weed or kelp nearby. Your chances of catching some go up something like 10-fold.
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby slowpoke » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:45 pm

My understanding was that his rudders were fixed in the down position all the time?
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Re: Rudder Issues

Postby Chad » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:38 am

yup.
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