Running Rigging

[jray]

Any advice on halyards and sheets. So many options available, just wondering what most of you went with. What didn't work that well and what is working great. I don't mind a little extra cost if the line gives several years of good service. I have zero experience rigging a new boat. Those with carbon booms did you Gflex something to hold the strap for the vang purchase? I bought the Harken block package from Watershead years ago. Thoughts?

[slowpoke]

This is something I need to know about also. My last boat used 5/8" line for jib sheets, and when I went up to Chad's house to get his build rig (Thanks again Chad!) he showed me some of the line he had for his boat, it all looked like dental floss to me! I think the smallest line I have handy is 3/8", Maybe I can use it for the mainsheet?

[Chad]

Very welcome, Rocky- glad to save it from the firewood pile!

I've been buying line from the "clearance rack" at APS, just slowing accumulating bits of string. Hall has a similar area of their site, and Layline used to. There's no load on this boat (except maybe the V1's) that 1/8" spectra couldn't handle, so beyond that you're looking at price, the size versus how often/hard it is handled, it's running characteristics, whether friction is good or bad, and whether you know how to splice. If you can't splice at least single braid line, it's definitely time to learn- it's very easy, there's plenty of online education, and you can do it on the living room floor in front of your wife's mindless tv shows.

Double braids with tight covers such as Warpspeed seem to hockle and jamb easily, so they aren't so good for mainsheets. Not having any winches, they might be fine for jibsheets, but there's plenty of great lines that are soft on the hands and free-running- usually the euro style stuff with the speckled coloring. Sheets will probably be sized for handling rather than strength or stretch, so nothing high tech is needed. Spin sheets are nice if tapered for the amount from the last turning block to the clew or Y-strop. Any sheet that goes over a ratchet block (so all of them, I hope) needs some cover where it meets the ratchet, and needs to be thick enough to be hand held for long periods.

Single braid spectra is great for halyards, especially the somewhat newer SK78 for the main halyard since it gets set just once per day, ideally. Adding a short thickener inside the core, and a piece of cover where the line gets cleated is the lightest and cheapest way to go. Just saw Joe's post, and I'll add that I used Crystaline for some checkstays once, and found them a real hassle to strip and splice since the core is so loose and sloppy.

Every other adjustment line is just a balancing act of price, size, stiffness, lightness, and color. Nothing runs over blocks smoother than 1/8" spectra, but it's too slippery for ratchets or hand holding. Nothing is cheaper than polyester double braids such as Sta-Set, but it's stiff, heavy, and stretchy. You makes your choices. Don't buy a spool of something and rig the whole boat with it (same color), no matter how good a deal it sounds!

I'd consider going metal free in your jib clew if possible, to keep the front of your mast pretty. Sailmakers are pretty comfortable using webbing loops, and then the sheets can connect with either knots or the snazzy soft shackles that are all over the web.

[jray]

Thanks, great information! I will likely use some advice from everyone. I need to brush up on my splicing though. At one time I actually did quite a bit of line work, years ago. Much bigger stuff then what we are talking about here. Relearning shouldn't be to difficult, I hope!

[Kevin]

Splicing 12 strand is the simplest thing out there. You need very few special tools and rarely do you need to resort to cursing. Just remember to taper everything.

I like the new-england 12 strand spectra because it's a little more "round". I don't think it matters much as long as is sk-75. The sk-78 is pricey unless you are getting it on clearance. Standing rigging is about the only thing I can think of worth spending that kind of money on.

For a cheap cover to go over 12 strand spectra, I like sta-set. Very durable, cheap and easy to buy in quite a few colors. Simple to splice on a short piece where the cleat grabs the halyard for instance.

Spend the money where it makes sense. a 3/8" jib sheet will be 5 times stronger than you need, so just go for what will give you a good hand, work well. You don't need Gucci lines for everything. For a spin sheet that's 3 times longer and more likely to get wet it makes sense to find that fancy solution.

I've made plenty of 12-strand rope shackles. I've yet to have one pull loose or come open on me. I use the "diamond knot" (try google) with the ends coming out the other side. I wipe them together so I'll know if they start to slip because you'd see it pulling inside the knot.

If you don't have a hot knife, buy one. The blade you add to a 35 watt soldering iron is the most cost effective way to get one. It's totally the way to go.

When finishing a line end (especially those with a spectra core) check out the APS method because it works. This is what they do... a) pull the cover back and cut off the core 1 core thickness from where you want the end. b) pull the cover back over core and cut it off at your end point. c)use pliers and/or your hot knife to shape the cover into a cylinder with the end essentially closed so you don't see the core d) add a wiping to ensure everything stays where you want.

Kevin.

p.s. do color coordinate your lines, it will help when you have rookie crew pull the red one works when trim the jib sheet doesn't. Or worse, blow the spin tack and they grab the spin halyard instead because they are right next to each other. Sometimes you have to go simple to avoid a wipe out

[Kevin]

Jon,
On the vang, yes I did make up something and glue it to the boom with g-flex. I laid mine up on top of wax paper taped on top of the boom so it conformed to the shape of the boom. Jeff used foam and his works fine so I think you could go that route. Mine is heavier because I used some scrap g-10. You just cover it with some glass and carbon (for looks ). let it setup. pull it off and trim all the edges. lightly sand the boom and bottom of the part and g-flex them together. (if you mask the boom off before you sand then you just sand and just apply adhesive where it's needed.) I also made pad eyes (if you can call them that) to locate my blocks on the boom. The main sheet blocks are lashed to the boom and then lashed to the pad eye. I did it that way so the boom can rotate as the loads take it and avoid chafe on the lashings. ( used harken ti-lite blocks and if you have shackled blocks you can do the same thing they will just hang down a little farther. )

Kevin.

[Ron Bowman]

For halyards, we went with 3/16 inch for all three. The main and jib halyards are Crystalyne (vectran cored double braid). The spinnaker halyard is just polyester. I think it was called Marlow Pre-stretch. I did not use any shackles. We just tie on the halyards so we weren't concerned about splicing those. For the spinnaker pole control lines, we went with Buzz line (5/16). I think the jib sheet is also 5/16 Buzz line. For the main sheet and boom vang, we used Salsa line, also 5/16. I did splice together some single braid dyneema to make a loop for the boom vang to attach to the boom.

In order to attach the boom vang and mainsheet blocks to the boom, I glued small squares of fiberglass board to the top of the boom and then drilled and tapped those squares for #10 screws. I then attached small stainless eyestraps on top of that. The small squares of fiberglass board are about 1/2 inch square and are glued about 3/4 inch apart so as to make kind of a saddle that your vang loop or sheet blocks sit down into. The eyestraps just act as a keepers on top.

https://picasaweb.google.com/intune99/I5503#5376968272269850994
https://picasaweb.google.com/intune99/I5503#5376968376211469314

Ron

[jray]

Just got in on the APS bargain line sale last night. Didn't get everything but made a dent in the list. Thanks for mentioning it!

[jray]

Any recommendations on the best book for splicing line? I've seen several advertised in different places. I do like Kevin's diamond knot but would like to try some eye splices on the halyards and the tack line for the spinnaker.

[Kevin]

Hands down the best splicing and rope work guide is by Brion Toss. He understands knots of old and why sailors used them 200 years ago. He also understands the loss of strength a line experiences when tied in a knot. He applies his knowledge to modern materials. In this day of lashing everything, the old methods are now the new methods. I'd recommend you go with the working rope book (spiral bound) http://www.briontoss.com/catalog/books.html. It includes things for braided line, double braids (total PITAs) and dyneema 12 strand stuff.

You don't need fancy tools either. I use a 2 foot loop of 22 gauge copper wire with a washer on the end. The wire came from a chunk of cat 5 computer data cable. All you need is something stiff enough to feed through the center of a 12 braid line and then strong enough to pull the line through. The wire will break eventually. But that cable has 8 wires in it, so one 5' cable should last you a long time. I have a brion toss spicing wand and I don't really like it. It adds the thickness of the tubing when splicing grommets (burying tail over tail). I also have a fid. It was cheap and the end was rough so I polished the tip and now it is awesome.

So far, I haven't had anything let go on me. So I'm pretty happy with the results from following Brion's splicing instructions.

Kevin.

[admin]

I'm to the point of having discussions with someone who is going to do the rigging on #87. Rigging is definitely not my strong point. I'm a bit of a dunce when it comes to rigging, having used the checkbook tool instead of the rigger's toolkit in the past.

What I'd really like is a list of LINE LENGTHS for RUNNING RIGGING!

Things like:
- main sheet length (approx due to variations with systems...mine is Melges20 style)
- Jib Hayland length (C-Tech frac rig)
- Spinn Halyard length
- jib sheet length
- spinn sheet length
- spinn tack line length
- prod extender line length
- and anything else I've forgotten

I thought this list of line lengths existed somewhere on the .org forum, but I'll be darned if I can find it. I, too, am picking up remnants from the APS line rack and don't want to be too short...I've already had enough experience with that

[Chad]

Questions to ask first:
Any halyards 2:1'ed? Will you cleat them near the mast base? (suggest "yes" for main at least)
Prod line 2:1'ed? Cleated near cabin bulkhead/f110? (2:1 probably good, means less load on cleat, means it's less likely to fail than tackline cleat which is good since prod violent retraction can be more damaging)
Jib sheets 2:1'ed? Continuous? (suggest "yes" for both answers)
Spin sheets continuous? (if a Y sheet, they'll be a loop around the mast and need to be in place before each stepping...)

Main sheet length depends on purchase, and where you'll cleat it (headknocker or floor swivel?)

Continuous sheets means less line clutter, but no opportunity to differentiate colors/sides. Your call what's more important.

Kevin and Jon have some ideas on purchase for main and vang I'm sure.

[admin]

I guess first off I better talk to the sailmaker and then get back to this question. Sheesh, this is getting complicated. Maybe I should just build a Laser instead. Or a hollow surfboard

[jray]

When I was figuring all the lengths out I got out the tape, added things up then ordered about 10' extra to be safe. I've a little leftover on some and just enough on the others. None of my halyards are two to one. I didn't keep any of my measurements but would be happy to measure some of them if you need. Chad is correct, what I have works with my layout and where I placed my blocks cleats, yours might be different especially the sheets.

[Tim Ford]

Thanks Jon, I like the + 10 foot rule, too.
A couple points of discussion:

1) I am not seeing why 2:1 would be nec on this thing with a tiny, frac, non-overlapping jib. Granted something like the Antrim27 (winchless) benefits from a 2:1 jib sheet system, but is it really nec on the i550?

2) continuous sheets: not a fan! more friction, more hardware to foul and more hockles. Benefits are slim compared to disadvantages.

3) jury still out on the 2:1 for the main if I get the big flat head. Still, this is an 18 foot boat....not sure why it's nec.

4) prod: belayed at aft end of pole, runs forward thru block at f18, runs back thru 110 and cleated.

The majority of my racing for the last 15 years has been on big boats with the exception of the J24...okay, they do have winches but a spinn hoist on an Omega 36 or a J105 is 1:1, not seeing why all this extra purchase is necessary on the i550...am I missing something????

[jray]

I haven't found it a problem running most everything 1 to 1. Maybe I'm missing something also. The only lines that are more, are my main sheet at 4 to 1, and the traveler at 2 to 1. I have the traveler controls set up as continuous which works well for me. The tack for the spinnaker is all run above deck to a block lashed to the prod, a fairlead fixed half way between that and the cleat back by 124. I tried to keep it as simple as possible, there are plenty of other things I complicated during the build.

Don't worry about doing your own running rigging. I know you have been the first to the boat and ended setting everything up before the rest of the crew shows. It's really not much more than that. I hadn't done any rigging either but made it through and actually had fun doing it. If something doesn't work the way you want, change it. I'm re-routing some sheet lines this spring to work better during racing and make things easier to single hand. You built a boat putting the rigging on is easy in comparison.

Edit: forgot the boom vang, ran last fall at 4 to 1 and will definitely put it on a cascade this spring at 8 to 1.

[Tim Ford]

Thanks guys, good stuff and I appreciate everyone's responses.

Jray, I will do the running stuff, only paying the rigger (a guy I do a lot of racing with) to do the mast and boom, he's good with the drill and tap stuff (used to race and rebuild cars) and has amassed a bunch of riggerish skills in his comparatively short but pretty successful boat racing transition (won High Point on the Bay before turning 30 this past summer).

Now I just need spring back, seems to have disappeared this week!

[Kevin]

The right answer is "it depends"

On the jib sheet. Mine is 84sqft. If you think you can trim that jib in 20kts on a 1:1 purchase than be my guest. 2 harken 29mm blocks on the jib clew and 20 feet of extra line is all it takes to make that a 2:1 purchase. I'd recommend you consider it. I have young and novice crew so lighter loads is a good thing. As for continuous, if you get the length right it makes the cockpit easier to deal with. Grab the red line and keep pulling is a lot easier then just about any other instruction. The trick is to start long and keep shortening it until it's just right with only a little slack on the floor while underway. If you have roller furlering then continuous sheets are that much longer and more mess on the floor.

On the jib halyard, mine is 1:1. The trick with the jib halyard is that it's can become part of your rig tune. As the wind pipes up you put more bend in your mast with vang tension. This has the capability of loosening your shrouds and lowing your head stay tension. So you really want to be able to adjust the headstay. However, you may choose to use the jib halyard to make that up. And you may need both if you add headstay tension and then need to trim in the jib to clean that up. Jib halyard is also easy to make 2:1. Come off the mast at a turning block, go outboard to a second block and then head to a cleat. When you need the 2:1, add another block between the first 2 and run that to purchase. Need tension, just give it a little tweak.

Main halyard, mine currently is 2:1 and I'm going to probably swap that to a 1:1. Hoisting hasn't been an issue and it's easy enough to try with a 1:1 to see if it's an issue. While under way it's 2-blocked so there is no real advantage while underway. It's not like there is enough load to really stretch the halyard but the theory is that a 2:1 cuts your load on the halyard in the mast by 50% so it's less likely to stretch. 1/4" vectran isn't going anywhere with the loads on the i550 so not an issue. If the halyard were smaller stuff, then maybe it would make sense. I'll take a higher hoist this coming season.

Spin pole deploy is 1:1. No issue with this. It was a 1:2 setup that also sucked in the tack line but the system wasn't very smooth it was complicated. I changed it out for a simpler setup with separate tack line.

spin tack is now separate and is 1:1. If you preset the tack line prior to set then you don't have to touch this during a hoist. Also allows you to fly the spin a little looser in medium conditions which give you a little more rotation to windward.

Spin halyard is 1:1. no issues and a 2:1 would just give you 2x as much line to haul in.

Outhaul - primary 2:1 at the boom end with a secondary 3:1 in the boom giving me a 6:1 total purchase. This seems to be a good answer and allows for adjustment even when under load which I consider to be a good answer. If you can't adjust it under load when you need to, then you won't and you'll get into trouble. On the open 5.70 you have to tack to add outhaul because there isn't enough outhaul purchase.

Cunningham - 2:1 primary and a 4:1 secondary for a 8:1 total purchase. Don't really need 8:1 but it's rigged and I see no reason to un-rig it at this point. Plenty of purchase under load which is a good thing as discussed.

OK, now the $64,000 question. Do you have a traveler or a bridle? The trade offs are bigger then I realized because you need a "ton" more vang with the bridle then you do with a traveler. Just the nature of the 2 systems. My new vang will have a 16:1 purchase and my mainsheet will go to a 3:1. In the past I had 8:1 vang at a bad angle and a 5:1 mainsheet and I couldn't seem to get it hauled in enough with the main sheet to get the vang tension on hard enough to keep the main depowered so in a puff you release the main a little and the main powers up even more so you have to make a big dump and then real it in again. This was not fun sailing imho. New setup will have a lot more vang power and a much better angle which will translate into much better control under load.

Note. vang loads bend your mast while traveler loads will not. So how you work this will effect your sail trim. What works on a bridle boat sail wise may not work on a traveler boat because of the impact of vang loads on the mast.

2nd note. with a cabin top maststep I only had about 20" of mast to "bend" with my vang load. The mast has extra carbon at it's base making it pretty much impossible to effectively bend the mast with vang loads. My new setup will move that vang load point up the mast so that I can effect sail trim with vang loads (and control that impact with check stays).

Cheers, Kevin.

p.s. It's 55 here today so spring temps are headed your way.

[jray]

Thanks Kevin, you have a great way of putting out the best information, both the plus and minus. If my grandkids take to sailing we will likely 2 to 1 some of the sheets or halyards to make it better.

Snowing right now with sunshine, not sending that east to Tim. Only warm days!

[Chad]

With 2:1 on the main halyard, you can use 1/8" plain spectra at 40-odd cents a foot and almost no weight. And it'll stretch less, and load your mast tip less, making your tip easier to tune.

I recall someone blew up a tackline cleat a year ago- I don't recall who? Any way, the tackline loads the pole with up to two times the line load (90 to 180 degree angle change). I'd think that's a good argument for 2:1'ing the pole line.

60 degrees here today, and warm days due all week. If this is as bad as winter gets around here, I'm good.

[admin]

Good points everyone, thanks....still thinking (and checking the bank balance)

--Dave

[Tim Ford]

whadda you guys think about this 61' of Paraloc 4mm...should I stay or should I go?

[Kevin]

Paraloc isn't stripable and I don't think you can really splice the stuff. I think I saw something that APS does, they stick it into a dynemma 12 strand tail to connect it to anything or put an eye splice on the end. It's plenty strong for just about anything on an i550 running rigging wise. At 4mm you are not going to want to have to hold on to it under lots of load. So if it's your spin halyard say, and you don't quite get the monster kite up and it loads up. Well then you have a problem and you better have some kick ass gloves on to get that last foot pulled home. 6mm line is just slightly more comfortable in that type of situation is all I'm saying. 3mm dynemma 12-strand with some 3/16" cover where you need it on the tail would be about the same cost and give you more options.

I just bought some marlow excel control to make 2 continuous adjustment lines for my gnav and adjustable forestay secondary purchases. It's here... http://www.apsltd.com/c-7277-excel-control-marlow.aspx Plenty strong, end to end spliceable and the same size at $.61 a foot. All of the strength is in the cover for this line, the core is just there for filler/shape.

I looked at fse robline dinghy control line too. about the same prices as above, stripable to save weight and friction where you don't want it. This is cheaper than buying dyneema 12 strand and cover separately for control lines. I wish this stuff was around 2 years ago when I was doing my outhaul. What I did works fine, but this would have been easier. Strip the purchase part and splice directly to a ti-lite (or t2 block now). I have 2 different lines and a weird transition section.

About time you started thinking about what line goes where and why. This is the fun part and it doesn't really end either...

K.

[Chad]

Yeah, you can't splice it, so it's good for lines where you plan to tie knots, double ended lines, maybe a jib halyard. I wouldn't buy it as a utility line expecting to use it all over the boat, but only if I had a specific use for it ahead of time.

[Tim Ford]

I was thinkin' jib hauling yard....