Uncooperative Lifting Keel Foil

[admin]

I'm trying to get a grip on what's happening with my keel foil. Last night was the worst experience yet with trying to get the damn thing back up.

First off, it never went all the way down....it got fussy with about another 4-5 inches left to go into the Down position. This was a bit of a tell...I had a feeling that it was going to be a pain getting it back up.

Then, when we were putting the boat away, it was a total nightmare getting it back up (so that I can haul it out on to the floating dock). I was about to give up and let the boat live tied to the pier for as long as it took for me to go back down and work on it...when, finally, it came up a few inches and we were able to wrestle it all the way up.

I'm wondering if, with all the rain and high humidity we had, it maybe swelled up a little bit. We have had an unusual string of cold, wet weather, like about 5 - 6 weeks of it with very little relief. Gray, drizzle and showers punctuated with the occasional downpour.

The keel is laminated strips of white oak, covered with 2 layers of e-glass (and a strip of carbon fiber) and totally encapsulated in this epoxy/glass layup. The top of the foil (which faces the weather/rain) is edge-filled with epoxy and a couple of coats of poly-U paint. Can moisture still penetrate this and cause wood to swell?

If I have to, I'll carry or keep at the dock a 2x6 that I can turn on edge and use as a lever to get the damn thing started. Also a better 6:1 lift system, as I have a totally inadequate vang system now that's just 4:1

My thoughts are to take a sander to the foil, grind off a few mil of paint and filler and then spray coat with Sailkote. But I still think it's weird that the thing used to deploy easily all the way down, and something is stopping that from happening. Any thoughts or advice?

[Tim Reiter]

How difficult is it to inspect the inside of the case for rub? Sorry for the suggestion but it could be there.
T

[micah202]

.

...worked fine initially(?), now jamming!? ...strange problem.

I know when I first got Carbon Offset, a major item I wanted to change was the foil-shaped sleeve. Other than the inescapable damage possible with a grounding,, the blade would -easily- bind with any change in fore-aft orientation, and cause jams similar to what you describe.

..of the active boats out west,, I don't think there are any that use the tight fitting sleeve.
I really recommend people use alternatives for the reasons above.

[lohwaikin]

I have the same keel jamming issue although the keel is guided by wooden inserts glued to the top and bottom of the keel-box. These inserts have a tunnel in the shape of the foil with about 2mm clearance all around. I lift the keel by main halyard, and it's not exactly vertical. Lowering the keel is never a problem. But I can feel and see the jam during lifting. In my case, it can be easily solved by tapping the keel headstock with a hammer's wooden end at every heave. The jam occurs at the trailing edge under the keel head-stock. It's only required at the first foot or so of the lift, thereafter it's loose enough to fully lift the keel (all 4+ feet of it) by hauling at the 4:1 purchase appended to the headboard end of the main halyard.

Maybe I didn't make my keel section uniformly.....

2013-06-09-10.JPG

2013-03-16-6.JPG

Cheers,

[admin]

Good stuff, thanks everyone! Tim, I'd have to tear out a panel and then reinstall it, and I'm not quite that desperate yet. (although close). Couch, I think you are right, it's an alignment issue involving the sleeve....which gets me back to square one ripping out a panel of the keel box to get to the sleeve and remove it. Looks somewhat inevitable, I guess.

One thing about the system you are using, Loh. Seems like water is going to get insde the keel box and remain there and take a long time to dry out. That'll allow growth of mold and algae and other critters depending on what's adrift so to speak, in the air in everyone's particular venue. So you've got this kind of damp space and seems like eventually that'll begin to soften up the structural units, which are also uninspectable, due to being inside the box. Did you glass the inside of the box super-well so that trapped moisture is not going to be an issue?

Just curious....I'm thinking that yes, this winter that sleeve is going to be history. In the meantime, I have ordered a second scissors jack to use in tandem with the first one....sit each one on either side of the foil, run a bar across the two jack with a line attached to the eye atop the keel and use the jacks to get the thing started. Like you say, Loh, once we get the thing started it comes up OK.

Thanks again for the feedback, fellows!

[micah202]

..here's what I came up with...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/59103003@ ... 6076955693

...1st 2 pics,, click on picture for descriptions.

The extra space was filled by poring 2 part foam into bags around the keel

[Tim Ford]

Cut some new acetal™ guides and hope to get them glued in this week (if it ever stops raining). Using a specific adhesive called SA-2100 and have to "torch" the plastic prior to installing.

This should be fun....

Delrins July2017.jpg

[Warren Nethercote]

I am thinking of using guides, but cutting a foil-shaped hole in the bottom to minimize flow in and out of the box. With a relatively tight fit only at the bottom is there hope of less 'stiction'?

[Tim Ford]

I think I still have a pretty clean entry at the bottom of the hull, so I'm hoping that won't be a restriction/friction point.

I did hear that orange is fast...

orange juice.jpg

[admin]

Yesterday I finished up the keel box repair, can't wait to try these puppies out soon.

Delrin zinn.jpg

We're back in bidniz, baby!

[admin]

I discovered a LOT of delam on my keel foil, soooooooo....I have to face up to the fact that most of the skin has to come off.

Ugh. All that fairing and e-glass and CF.

BUT: I figure the delam may have part of my issues with trying to raise the keel. And, also, I am heartened by the fact that the white oak lamination looks intact and did not seem to mind all the drama I put the foil thru during the past couple of years.

So yeah, some quality time with an angle-grinder and some aggressive-grit sander, then back to hanging e-glass and CF on a chunk of wood

keel GRIND1.jpg

[micah202]

...yah,, delam would cause such an issue. Any idea of the cause?

[admin]

Yes, cause was most likely poor adherence to white oak.

I learned after the layup that white oak should be heated to a certain temp, and then hit with a tie-layer of pox. Let the pox cure, wipe off the blush then hit it again with another coat. Use something fairly aggressive on the 2 coats of pox, like 150 grit, THEN lay on the e-glass skin.

Curse of the amateur, you learn what you need later sometimes, and then you never use that knowledge again....

[admin]

Was a warm day yesterday so I took an angle grinder and a sander to the keel foil. I was alarmed at how easily the e-glass/CF skin peeled off the oak laminate. So the deed is done, just have to put a new skin on it and paint it. One good thing was how well the oak laminate had held up after being so rudely torqued and tortured with repeated groundings, slamming off waves and general wailing on with mallets and what-have-you to remove it from its sleeve when it was jammed. So: progress.

rice peel off.jpg

keel stripped.jpg

[monsters inc]

Egads! I am sure the second round will go much quicker with all your hard earned know how. I see some 40 grit in your future and look forward to seeing the end results. How many layers of glass/carbon were on the keel before the delamination? Was the keel flexing much while in use, just wondering if it contributed to the delam or just the oak resisting the inter layer bonding. Cheers , Mike

[admin]

Just one layer of e-glass and a strip of carbon twill down each side. Keel flexing may well have been an issue, but more likely is the issue discussed at length in this publication:

http://epoxyworks.com/index.php/epoxy-with-oak/

so, I happen to have some G/flex and will simply use that instead, while also following the recommendations at the end of the paper cited above. That "hard earned know how" comes at a cost!

Thanks, Mike!

[ryderp]

I have to ask: Since you already have the keel out of the boat, and you are effectively starting from scratch, why not build a new foil out of mahogany, cedar, or some other material that bonds better with epoxy and stiffening layers (CF and glass)? Is it because it would be too difficult to remove the foil from the bulb? It seems to me that G-flex would be good for laminating the strips of the oak, but not such a good material for laying on glass or carbon fiber. A quick fix might be to just paint the oak and put the keel back in.

Phil

[admin]

Really great question/points, Phil.

Yes, it would be a struggle to free the bulb from the foil, but it is do-able. I may consider that. But: I wouldn't consider staying with the existing oak structure if West System hadn't issued a new directive specifically and repeatedly saying G/flex is fine for the job.

I'm also somewhat strapped for free time, until I give up working sometime this summer or fall...or in 2019.

And don't think I haven't considered just paint it and popping it back in the boat! But I'd worry about the foil disintegrating under load. I don't like to worry when sailing (in spite of its being inevitable and being built into the sport, to some extent). So I figure, prep the wood as recommended, lay on some G/flex as a wet-out, let it kick a little, then lay on the cloth and be done with it, other than fairing and painting. I also had a LOT of fairing on the original skin, to the point where it was 2 - 3 mm thick in some spots. I'm not going that route this time (hopefully the wood layer with be a lot fairer than the first incarnation was).

Thanks for the advice though and I appreciate it!

[admin]

Of course, like a complete idiot, I re-upped with straight pox and not G-Flexx....oh well, we'll see how this works. Not even sure if I want to paint it. Just want to get it back in the boat and go sailing.

NewSkinJul2018.jpg

[Warren Nethercote]

If you are dry-sailing why not use a clear barrier coat so you can see how the repeat sheathing fares? Of course, no fairing would be possible. It would look cool, with the admission that looks are deceiving: a clear finish camouflages (sp?) a wealth of surface irregularities. Sometimes pretty does not equate to fast.

[admin]

I like that idea and just looked up West's suggested technique. That's what I'm going to do. I might mix in a tiny bit of their 423 graphite power, just to help with the old up & down.

Keep ya posted, thanks Warren!

[Mist]

TF, that’s all I did. West 105/207 with graphite powder, it doesn’t take very much powder. I put 2 or 3 coats on then sand 180 then 400. I put it in the boat and went sailing. I’ve been meaning to put top coat on it but other priorities keep coming up.

[admin]

>>but other priorities keep coming up

^ I have no idea what you are talking about. None.

thanks for the confirmation and good to know I am not alone. In the i550 world, one is never alone. I like that.

[ryderp]

One of the biggest mistakes I made with my boat was putting graphite powder in the epoxy on the inside of my keel sleeve. It makes a continual mess (my keel always has black streaks on it) and as far as I can tell does nothing to help in raising and lowering the keel. If your tolerances are that close you are going to have a problem. If not, it should slide up and down very easily.

Phil

[admin]

I used it there, too, but it wasn't a problem and did not streak the keel foil too much. One thing you don't want is for the graphite to be in contact with anything metal...don't ask me how I know!