For Refugees from the i550.org site...A Brief History

[admin]

Reposted and edited from my comment on another thread:
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This is not to prolong or start up a dormant debate, but with a lot of new people signing up for this Forum, a little history may be in order. I'm sure we got a tremendous amount of bad ink on the i550.org site. We elected not to engage.

I thought that, without a lot of sniping, we could give both collective and personal reasons why we left the i550 World and started a class. Here is my thinking, other's will probably differ.

I bought into a class that had the potential to see winning boats at the podium due to racing skills. In the middle of my build, it morphed into a class where races are won in the design, shop. That's OK, and I understand the appeal of that. It's just not the kind of racing I prefer and I suspect the "open" class will need to introduce ratings and a handicap element, eventually.

In a world of home-built boats, that's the reality of the situation. And frankly, while a little disappointed, I have come to grips with it.

One myth I would like to put an end to, though: There is a lot of talk about how so-and-so mods will not really effect performance of one boat over another. This is basically Joe's chorus over and over again on the SA thread. I can say with absolute certainty, that: yes, the mods will. Anyone who has done a modicum of OD racing in a strict OD class will verify this.

As for the class, at the very least we were able to shed ourselves of some individuals who, in my opinion, were very bad for the design. I care too much about racing to share precious time with people I don't care for or respect. The class is comprised of folks who are helpful and kind to one another and in the context of this Forum, that will be the over-riding principle.

As far as Chad's boat is concerned, I say GO FOR IT! We'll come to grips with the performance variables one day.

[M&S]

Well said, admin man. Mebbe Chad will be so busy adjusting things he will forget to steer. Just kidding Chad.
T

[Chad]

Well said, admin man. Mebbe Chad will be so busy adjusting things he will forget to steer. Just kidding Chad.
T

Usually happens when telling others what to do. So I made it so
I could do almost everything...

Yeah, that's the answer!

(and TimF, go back and read some of the first dozen pages of the yahoo site- *some* boat development has been a part of the boat's DNA since day nought. Of course some will matter, just not sure which for the positive!)

[admin]

I think that's a good point, but I'm not sure it will be "level." I think a slightly wider handicap range would be more likely. Whatever, it can't (won't) be as bad as PHRF! ...right?...

This may be a bit of a shock, but I'm beginning, well, to be honest, I'm in the middle of, coming to a realization that the expectations I had of a class resembling anything remotely like One Design were totally unrealistic.

I was thinking along the lines of a modern "Lightning," a flat-bottom, home-built boat along fairly close class rules that would be fun to race boat for boat. But, now that I think about it, I have seen enough people screwing around with One Design boats, PRODUCTION boats, that have very strict OD class rules, to modify them either legally or not....I have no idea what I was thinking would happen with HOME BUILT boats with a loose "restricted development" rule set.

Clearly the appeal is to modify the crap out of them. And to be perfectly honest, I think the first public uttering I ever made about the boat, back in 2007? was I thought the coach roof was too high and that if I ever built one I would lower the profile a bit. I can't find that post on any forum, don't know if it was on SA or Yahoo or whenever, but I believe the first person to respond and chide me for the heresy was CB himself!! saying that would throw off the rig measurements! I could be wrong, maybe it was someone else...but the point is, I wanted to modify the boat from the get-go, so I suppose it's somewhat hypocritical to be strongly against the Openites.

[admin]

Let me ask you a question, first: how much keelboat One Design racing have you done?

[cstay]

Also lets not forget when you make a boat super complicated its more things you have to get right. Not trying to pick on any certain design because thats that this is about finding out what works. But maybe with a boat like chads with a jibing keel and a canting rudder that might cause some sort of huge weather helm that actually slows the boat down. Also its more you need to adjust and keep an eye on. Going around a mark will get super complicated. At least i am hoping so caus im to lazy to build all that crap . also if i remember correctly Carbon Offset beat the PDX boats correct? Thats a aluminum mast cabin boat. Vs carbon masts and flush decks with articulating sprits. So that should show these boats are dam close.

[Tim Ford]

No, that's taking something anecdotal and extrapolating it into a conclusion.

More than likely, it'll take a season of racing, within a decent sized mixed-fleet, to figure out what is fast and what is not, in different kinds of conditions, breeze and sea-state being large factors.

The TP52's are in their, what...4th iteration by now? What's nice is we aren't throwing out a million dollar boat with an i550 that's a total dog, but after all the work (and sanding) it may feel that way.

[Tim Ford]

Let me ask you one more question: are people building variants on the original design(s) to make the boats SLOWER?

The idea that all the variations in i550 builds will result in similar performance is so patently absurd that it's not even more arguing. If you want someone to share your feelings with, you and Joe can have fun talking about it. We are done with it here.

I repeat: we are done with it here. If you want to pursue nonsense, go to SA or some other forum.

[admin]

Bubb bye.
(wanti550fl decided to leave us)

[micah202]

.......... if i remember correctly Carbon Offset beat the PDX boats correct? Thats a aluminum mast cabin boat. Vs carbon masts and flush decks with articulating sprits. So that should show these boats are dam close.

...hmmm,,interesting example..... the conditions were -very- light winds,,beating against a river-current,,-barely- making ground,,so LOTS of upwind time,,,,IIRC races were won/lost pretty much at the start,,,depending on getting across the line and tacking-clear of the possibility of drifting back through the line ,,and thankfully just one PDX boat at that point!
.............I did feel carbon had an advantage for the -fully- rotating above-deck pole,
,conversely in the light winds,,it was necessary to park one crew on the bow a lot of the time in order to get the stern out of the water--not the most comfortable trade-off.
...I've seen that Carbon's narrow cockpit,,wide sidedecks also hampered the crew's ability to project weight in hiking--short crews actually had a challenge to get their bum over the side at the forward end of the cockpit
...so nothing too conclusive on boat-to-boat comparisons,,usually quite a distance apart,,,but quite a good example of how it just doesn't matter what set-up you've got,,there's plusses/minuses to each configuration,, a way to overcome the long cabin for racing.,and -many- other variables on the water.


...I've had to rectify some construction issues on Carbon,,,down to the keelbox ,it's reinforcing panels,,and woodsealing throughout the interior,,so I lifted the cockpit floor for access,,replaced the keelbox,,,shortened cabin to just aft of the mast step,, and narrowed the cockpit sidetanks----I'm not sure if the newly renovated boat still qualifies under class.org rules,,but the cabin still has a ~1.2 meter height under the maststep

[jray]

It dose not sound like you changed anything that would make your boat not fit any rule set. I am sad now to hear I have to my knowledge the only long cabin boat in the US. Wild Child might be, it has been years since I've seen her and I don't remember exactly the configuration Duncan went with.

We need some pictures of the new and improved Offset.

[micah202]

It dose not sound like you changed anything that would make your boat not fit any rule set. I am sad now to hear I have to my knowledge the only long cabin boat in the US. Wild Child might be, it has been years since I've seen her and I don't remember exactly the configuration Duncan went with.

We need some pictures of the new and improved Offset.

...I'm happy to hear that the boat's likely class.org compliant,,height-in-cabin rule about the only thing that defines it other than general shaping?
...I'll pop-up some pics soon..wasn't expecting to have the time to hassle through that,,
....but the -nastiest- allergy attack me's ever's had has robbed half me production time over the past month...m

viewtopic.php?f=3&p=2156#p2156

[Big_Dog]

Jon
I got to visit Duncan last year. He had Wild Child on the hard, so I got a chance to look her over. She is the short cabin - long cockpit version. He did a great job on the boat, but he has made a few changes with a new aluminum mast and a retractable pole (U20 type).

[Chad]

...I'm happy to hear that the boat's likely class.org compliant,,height-in-cabin rule about the only thing that defines it other than general shaping?

http://www.i550class.org/forums/viewtop ... 2156#p2156

there's the bit about the cockpit being restricted to 106" from the tranny. Intent was to keep the crew positioning and movement similar or "equally restricted" regardless of cabin design. As you've found, weight forward is sometimes essential, and the consensus was that the open dayboat style would be the only competitive version if it was allowed, with freedom to hike out from positions all the way forward (sim to Peter's boat, if you ever saw his pics). One earlier proposal just said "no hiking straps attached more than 106" from the transom". That, and a piece of string across from deck to deck might meet the current rule requirement for this class at anything less than a Worlds level gathering... IMO.

[micah202]

...I'm happy to hear that the boat's likely class.org compliant,,height-in-cabin rule about the only thing that defines it other than general shaping?

viewtopic.php?f=3&p=2156#p2156

there's the bit about the cockpit being restricted to 106" from the tranny. Intent was to keep the crew positioning and movement similar or "equally restricted" regardless of cabin design. As you've found, weight forward is sometimes essential, and the consensus was that the open dayboat style would be the only competitive version if it was allowed, with freedom to hike out from positions all the way forward (sim to Peter's boat, if you ever saw his pics). One earlier proposal just said "no hiking straps attached more than 106" from the transom". That, and a piece of string across from deck to deck might meet the current rule requirement for this class at anything less than a Worlds level gathering... IMO.

...I'll respond over here.......
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=177&p=2164#p2164

...though I wonder,,,should I not be posting here now that I have a 'non-classy' boat
...overall I'm trying to be neutral towards the various classes,,,but since I live in the NW,,and like to race,,the profile of my boat reflects this.,,,as much as a little clip-on cabin extension would be added if I go to a big 'class' event sometime

[Chad]

Well my P is too long, my cabin too low, and the corrector weights for my hull will end up beyond the ends of he boat since I built light. Nobody's asked me to leave yet. Yet.

Keep posting. Some of us have the cloud of the knowledge of what some have done in the past, which might make us overly negative to what is going on currently. I know I really dislike some of the people I've "met" throughout the i550 experience, so it's plenty hard to see their actions in a positive light. An honest, different perspective is welcome, IMO.

[Kevin]

My reply to Micah is on the other thread. And that seems like a better place to discuss the particulars of his modifications.

To cover the larger point which is in line with this thread...

Of course, everyone should keep posting here. I am not against reasoned discussion with reasonable people who are willing to make compromises and concessions. If you want to change a rule or have an exception to a rule, then why and what are you willing to do to help make everyone who hasn't done what you've done feel like things are still even. In that past we had a constant take and no give, and that's a game I'm not willing to play. I just want to go sailing.

And Chad knows that he'll have to have a similar discussion about his P and his corrector weights. Ironic that his own boat doesn't work within the corrector weight formula that he himself figured out.

Kevin.

As a foot note: Racing sail boats is often an extremely emotional thing. When you add in to the mix that everyone has invested hundreds of hours into building their own boats, those emotions are amplified. Something to keep in mind when asking for things, we are all emotional on this one, so be kind to each other.

[Tim Ford]

Definitely keep posting here....it'll all work out in the end.