Official Bottom/Topsides Primer & Paint Thread

[Tim Ford]

There's a lot of good info here, on this forum, on the paint question, but it seems to be spread over 3-4 different threads, so here goes.

I'm going with 2000e over my (almost) smoothly faired and sanded bottom and sides. I've used it before, did a 27' keelboat bottom job about 15 years ago and the stuff was so stellar I hated to put bottom paint over top of it.

Then it's a toss up between Perfection and Brightside....Brightside is so easy, it's tempting...plus those 2-part paints scare me (not that 2000e is any safer).

I know Kevin used 2000e (is that your recommendation on the JD site?) and my question is: is a 1 gal. "kit" enough for 2-3 coats or will I need more? I need to order it soon and do the application before it gets truly cold here in Bodymore, Murderland.

Anyone have a recommendation, have at it!

[Kevin]

Tim,
I did use 2000e with good results. And I did not put a recommendation on JD. As I recall I had 3 coats of progressively bluer colors made by adding navy blue pigment as I went. The pigment was kind of a waste although it did make it very clear which coat of paint you were getting down to as I sanded it out. If you don't have 2 colors, then using pigment is a good choice. I found this stuff really hard to sand while green. Clogs the paper up badly. Maybe I should have been wet sanding it. I missed my quick sand opportunity and ended up waiting a week which meant that it was much harder. But it sanded easier, if that makes sense. It was hard to sand, but the paper lasted longer.

For my entire boat I had a 1 gallon kit of grey and a 1 quart kit of white for the last coat on the deck. I rolled mine on and was happy with how that worked out considering you are going to sand the whole lot anyway. I tended to error on the think side and didn't tip it out with a brush. I just let it dry, added additional coats and then sanded out once all that was done.

I used perfection and found that it covered very nicely and held up pretty well considering the rookie owner launching and retrieving the boat. I reused a brush for the 2nd coat on the top sides and that was a mistake, or I just didn't clean it properly. Next time I'd probably thin it even more and just roll it and leave it. I plan to experiment with that in the near future with the patch work I'm doing. For my primer I found some new mini rollers at HD that are not foam and ok in solvents. So far so good, but it's just been primer so far. Will have to report back on how they work with the finished coat.

Of note, both 2000e and perfection require an organic respirator even in open areas. The thinners (2333 for brushing and 2316 for spraying) are nasty business. I use double gloves with a third one to be traded out periodically with a goal of swapping the outer glove before the inner glove gets messed up, this is an issue during mixing and clean up mostly. I also found a set of glass beakers to be very handy when mixing to get the right ratios and then adding thinner later is easier that way.

Cheers, Kevin.

[ryderp]

I used Interlux Primekote for the primer and Interlux Perfection for the finish coat. Since I (at least for now) am dry-sailing the boat, I didn't use an anti-fowling bottom paint. Primekote is an epoxy and Perfection is a two part polyurethane. I used cheap lacquer thinner from Home Depot for the Primekote instead of the more expensive interlux product. The can said it was used for thinning epoxy paints and it worked just fine. As I recall, you can thin this primer up to 25% or so. After each coat of primer, I ended up doing very small fairing projects with epoxy and West System 407. I don't think that it's possible to actually see these smaller deviations until you get a coat of paint on there. There was no problem with using fairing compound over the primer. I ended up applying four coats of primer and sanded in-between each. I did tint the second coat, but I didn't see much benefit to that, so I didn't tint subsequent layers - it's either fair or it's not and you either have coverage or you're down to the glass.

I did buy the Interlux 2333N thinner for use with the Perfection paint. Perfection is so expensive that it didn't make sense to use cheap thinner if there was any risk of it resulting in a bad finish. As mentioned above it is very important to use an organic respirator, otherwise it would be a lot like sniffing glue for hours on end. As far as skin protection is concerned, I wore gloves, but quite frankly, 2333 this isn't "hazmat" level stuff. Here is a product information sheet on this chemical: http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiterature/ ... age=GetDoc
Just wear gloves and if you get some on your skin, wash it off with soap reasonably soon. The same chemical is used in many oil-based paints.

I used a 7" West System roller for all of the finish coats. For the first two coats, I had my son "tip" with a brush behind me as I went along. I decided that the streaks from the tipping were worse than any imperfections from the roller, so I actually just used the foam roller after that. I thought that my third coat of Perfection was going to be the last. I was painting in the garage on a beautiful day with the door open. About thirty seconds after I finished painting and was admiring my work, the wind kicked up and blew all kinds of debris on the paint. Sanding and yet another coat of (did I say, expensive?) paint solved the problem.

Here are a couple of hard-learned tips:
> Work in a place with good ventilation but not with a breeze from outside
> Don't ever go over wet paint with another layer in order to "fix" a problem. Fix it on the next layer
> Find a speed of application that works for you. If you're using a roller you want to go slow enough so that you don't create bubbles, but not so slow that it takes all day.
> Watch the drips. Drips take a lot longer to dry and even after a couple of days they can be wet inside, resulting in that fouled sandpaper that Kevin talked about.
> Plan ahead where you have your masking tape (for example separating the deck painting from the hull. I'm going to put on another coat next Spring because I ended up with tape lines where I didn't want them

Phil

[Tim Ford]

Great stuff, guys. Thanks for your time and this excellent advice!

[Chad]

I used the same "recipe" as Phil with Primekote under Perfection, but I used Performance Epoxy on the bottom. I rolled the primer 2x on the deck sanding in between, flipped the boat and did the glass work and fairing, primed and faired 3x, rolled and sanded the Performance Epoxy, then sprayed Perfection on the topsides (that's hull sides). I flipped the boat again and sanded the last deck primer (as well as the overspray from doing the topsides) and sprayed the deck. Lastly, I tuned up the transition that Phil talked about between the deck and topside paint, and sprayed a colored coat over that area- conveniently my paint scheme worked nicely like that!

I used a pencil to squiggle all over the final coat of primer to give me a sanding indicator- keep sanding until all the squiggles are gone, hopefully without burning through any high spots which were no doubt fixed during the sanding following coats 1 and 2. I didn't do that on the deck (just eyeball sanded it, I really don't recall why, just rushed the step I guess) and I can see the orange peel from the rolled primer below. Oh well...

I chose the Performance Epoxy for the bottom because it is really hard and able to be sanded and polished. It uses the same thinners as Primekote and Perfection.

I did a half-assed job of cleaning my shop before spraying the topside and deck coats, and probably should have done a better job, including draping plastic all around and building a filter panel for the incoming, return air. I sprayed with the doors closed, except the small side door propped half open with a fan blowing outward. The fan blades were crusted in paint, despite the fan being 20 odd feet away.

I've always thought of 2000e as a bottom/barrier coat, which didn't seem applicable to a dry sailed epoxy boat.

Another paint to consider is Awlcraft (not -grip), which can be sanded and buffed after it dries. Both Awlgrip and Perfection have a sort of clear, glossy coat that rises to the surface as it dries, but it is so thin that it can't be wet sanded and polished without burning through and killing the shine. I'm pretty sure Micah has some choice thoughts about the inadvisability of using Brightside...

[Kevin]

As I finally paint my rudder I ran out of primer so I had to go buy some more. Being open minded I tried something different and bought some primekote. I used a little extra thinner(#2333) and applied with a roller. It laid down really nicely. Much smoother than 2000e every did. I'll be giving it a quick sand and a last coat tonight, already had 2 coats of 2000e applied. With luck I'll be laying on finished coat this week before this warm spell ends. That would be totally awesome.

[Tim Ford]

Some people may ask (Chad already did) why use 2000e? It is a barrier coat, yes, and the boat will be dry sailed, but it will also sit outside in the rain, snow and whatever else Baldymore weather throws up on us. While sitting on a trailer is not the kind of environment conducive to osmotic blistering, it will be wet and soggy from time to time and that's enough for me to want to go with micro-plate protection. PrimeKote is for above the waterline.

FWIW, I did use PrimeKote on my keel foil and it seemed like good stuff.

And at the risk of sounding like a total dork: I can't tell you what a thrill it is to even be TALKING about bottom paint!

[Tim Ford]

P1010431.JPG

as a folllow up to Loh's post about using crappy rollers, from the WHAT NOT TO DO thread, here are ones I picked up from Lowes (not Lohs) and these worked really well with 2 part epoxy primer. 6" (not 7) high density foam rollers.

[Tim Ford]

Those of you using PERFECTION...did you sand in between coats? Thanks!

[Chad]

I did two coats in the recoat window, let those cure, then scribbled all over with a pencil and blocked it down with 320 grit wetsanding with a 3M rubber block. Then sprayed the last coat....

[Tim Ford]

excellent, thanks Chad!

[ryderp]

I did a light sanding between coats, and of course had to take off those #$@#% drips on the first coat. My "last" coat was fouled up by an unexpected breeze blowing a bunch of debris on the wet paint. Another round of sanding and a re-coat (with the garage door down this time) and I was done.

I am planning on putting on another coat on the topsides in the Spring because I'm not happy with the seam between where I painted the deck and the hull.

Phil

[Tim Ford]

Phil, I was wondering about the "build" property of "Perfection"...my minor deviations (the ones on the boat!) are about half a millimeter deep or less...should I bother to fair them or should I just figure on the Perfection filling those? I cannot find any specs on the build thickness of Perfection, at least not on the Jamestown Distrib site.

Thanks for all your advice and sorry about that breeze/debris...I will take caution with respect to that.

[Chad]

Perfection has almost zero build- it goes on amazingly thin. Best to brush some primer or a swipe of QwikFair across what you aren't willing to live with later, give them a quick 220 wetsand, and then paint. I had a handful of (very small) areas where I just puttied wetsanded and then painted, skipping the primer between- in a couple cases between coats of Perfection. So far it's fine- not recommended for big fairing, just minor scratches and pinhole type "deviations".

[Tim Ford]

Thanks for the quick reply, Chad!! that's great to know, I was figuring on at least 5 mil. I still have some 2-part epoxy (2000e) left...what do you think of the idea of mixing a little WestSyst 410 in with that?

[Chad]

Probably fine in a small amount, for very small fixes. I think 410 contains talc which likes water (hygroscopic, I think), while 2000e is a water barrier, so maybe they fight each other to a draw. Since you have your 2000e layers (and epoxy sheathing...) underneath, the worst is that this brew somehow reduces the longevity of the paint over the tiny areas that you are fixing. So a small chance of a small problem- your chance to reflect on your appetite for risk versus (small p) perfection...

[Tim Ford]

I see what you mean...OK, maybe straight up primer then, no worries!

"what you aren't willing to live with later"...that's a great way of defining the situation! Thanks man!

[ryderp]

Tim,

I agree that Perfection is pretty much going to mirror the surface on which it is applied. I used West System 407 in various concentrations with epoxy and a bit with the PrimeKote in order to fill in the little pin-holes and small divots.

Phil

[Tim Ford]

I may go with the 407 instead. My worry is the pink coloration showing true the Perfection though...think that's an issue? I have forgotten what color your boat is, Phil...mine is going to be Snow White (w/o the 7 dwarves, though).

[ryderp]

My boat is Snow White also (except for the non-skid part of the deck which is Oyster White). No sight of the "407 red" after a final coat of primer and the first coat of Perfection. Of course a bit showed through after sanding but the second coat of Perfection took care of that.

Phil

[Tim Ford]

Thanks, Phil. Great info!

[Kevin]

I painted my bottom and topsides a dark color and was amazed at how well perfection covered. Decks were a more complicated issue because I added some semi-gloss stuff to it which I think made it cover less than it would have straight. I won't do that again, but can't comment on snow white coverage (no dwarves here either).

[slowpoke]

Tim, how much primer and how much paint did you use?

[Tim Ford]

Sorry for the slow response, Rocky. I had to go through a few years of Jamestown D. receipts.

I used:

- 1.25 gallons of Interlux 2000 barrier coat on top the glass, for the entire hull including the topsides. I still have a tiny bit of 2000e left over and I probably used some on the keel, too.
So call it a 1.25 gal of this epoxy barrier coat
- 1.0 gallon epoxy PrimeKote on the deck and house, but I still have a bunch of this left. I will use in on the rudder (still waiting for parts).
- 1.5 gallon of Perfection 2-part epoxy paint on both the hull and the decks. I bought a second gallon after gallon 1 was used up and still have a lot, probably half, of that left.

I hope this helps, and I should check, when I get home, to see how much of each is left over.

cheers, --TF

[Dan]

Hi

As an alternative to Perfection as a top coat have a look at Interthane 990. My guess is it is the same stuff, but comes in 5 lt only and is the commercial paint line (avoid chandlers, direct from paint supplier). I paid USD50 per can. I would definitely use it again but would thin it more if spraying. Good luck to those in the painting stage.