C-Tech Rig People...I need some measurements

[Tim Ford]

C-tech'ers, my sailmaker needs a couple of measurements....do you have access to your rig? Or, did you supply these measurements to MAD sails?

a : Tack setback: distance in inches, 90 degrees from aft edge of mast to Main sail tack pin
b : Luff rope entry: distance in inches, 90 degrees from top edge of boom to entry of luff rope track
c : Tack setback: distance in inches, forestay attachment to stem to tack of jib (ring or webbing) - now, it seems like this is dependent on which stem fitting you are using....I think I am using the same one as Pipedream. I do not have a drawing for this.

see drawing for mainsail dimensions. THANKS!

measurements.jpg

[jray]

I can get you some measurements tonight. I used the same setup as Kevin for the main tack.

[Chad]

Here's a pic of Jeff's from deep in the bowels of my computer files. He had a shackle welded to the top of of the gooseneck bolt.

I recall DBSS said he used a velcro strap around the mast, so the halyard sends the sail to the top and the cunno tensions the luff. This was the path I chose as well.

So "a" is also up to you.

Jeffs gooseneck.jpg

Dunno about your "b", mine is different. Here's some numbers Kevin posted a long time ago, it might give you some landmarks to base a measurement from:

KEVIN'S MAST DIMS (BOTTOM UP)
0mm (0") maststep
559mm (22") - top of boom
3250mm (128") - Lower shrouds
3300mm (130") - Spreaders
6150mm (242") - jib halyard exit box.
6240mm (245.7") - forestay
6420mm (252.7") - hounds
6700mm (263.8") - taper starts
7696mm (303") - top of sail track
7747mm (305") - top of masthead( which is 50mm tall).

70mm ID with a 2.6mm wall.

And for "c" here's a pic of the fitting those other guys are using:

Discussed in this thread.

[jray]

Tim sent you a email with my sail measurements hope it helps.

[Tim Ford]

Thanks you guys, huge help!!!

[Kevin]

I have a bolt with shackle welded onto it that you can have if you really want it. I'll be using a velcro strap for A going forward. Cunningham for luff tension and outhaul for foot tension. With that in mind, not sure what you need B for either. A touch less than masthead to boom top should do the trick. (303" - 22" = 281"). That should be close to what Jon provided.

Thank god you are talking to a sail maker. That's the kind of progress we love to hear about. And I'm hoping for a warm winter but I still don't think I'll be out in the garage finishing the patch work until spring. Too many other things on the todo list.

Kevin.

[Tim Ford]

b I guess he wants to run the luff rope down far enough so that there is a bit sticking out at the bottom. I dont know. The guy asked for it so I reckon he wants it for some reason. 7.5 inches isn't much room...and it can be a chore trying to feed into a track that is too low. Are you guys using feeders? There isn't much room for one, it appears.

I'm going to go with a velcro gasket, too but thanks for the offer!

[Chad]

Again with a DBSS reference: I recall he had an issue with the track opening/splitting at the bottom and fit a Holt 924 to act as a prefeeder and track end reinforcement.

I think this is a link to an APS catalogue page that shows it (the APS website isn't clear):
http://www.livedigitaleditions.com/publ ... 1894&p=119

I bought one, but haven't put it on yet. It required trimming the track square at the end, and then a rivet.

[jray]

I actually have had issues with the rope slipping by the feed and not cracking but definitely eroding the track just above the feeder. I have decided to raise the feeder height about three inches but didn't know where to get the new part, Thanks Chad. The rope slipping out first happened when trying to get the sail down. Now it will do the same thing on the hoist if I'm not right there helping it feed. I've decided that the extra room will be helpful getting the main up and down shorthanded or one up.

[Kevin]

I had my main sail get out of the feeder a few times. It's a PITA for sure. The installed feeder is plastic and no match for a big yank on the halyard. My new one above the gnav gooseneck is metal (HA824) which I think will be more reliable.
Kevin.

[Tim Ford]

Another question: what kind of purchase did you guys use for the Cunning Ham? (it may be called a Smart Pig in your part of the world).

IS 4:1 ok? I reckon it would be.

[Tim Ford]

Also: any idea of the loads on the tackilne? I'm thinking 1/4 inch VPC (vectran core) should be fine. Anyone think that's underspec'ed?

[Tim Ford]

with regard to New England Ropes VPC:

http://www.neropes.com/product.aspx?mid ... id=2&pid=9

thanks
tf

[Tim Ford]

One more:

My rigger wants to strip the hals, good call on that.

Does anyone have a ballpark fig on how far from ZERO the mast exits are for the jib, main and kite halyards? Knowing this can help leave some cover inside the gate after the full hoist. I'd measure the mast myself if it were not all wrapped up in stuff under the house and it wasn't dark all the time around here in these parts. I can always do it this weekend, but the rigsta wants to buy the Rope this week.

If you got numbers great, if not I'll have to wait until this weekend, no biggie.

[jray]

Tim, here is all the info I have, maybe some will help. I used 1/4" New England line for the tack for the spinnaker and have had no problems with it. I can't tell you which line I bought as it was in the bargain bin at APS. I've been running so far without a cunningham but thought when I rigged one it would be a 4-1 ratio. That probably needs some input from someone who has been using one. On the halyards I stripped all of them, making sure that I had cover for purchase at the cam cleats. Some of that measurement would depend on how you plan on routing the halyards from the mast and the distance to your cleats. Can't do it tonight but would be happy to measure mine for you in a day or two.

[Chad]

Why vectran? Very slightly better stretch ratios than spectra (absolutely not a factor on anything but standing rigging on an i550), but lasts mebbe 20% as long, doesn't tolerate knots, and is lousy for chafe when uncovered. It's just sooo oughts...

Can't help on the exits- I cut in my own so no relation to yours.

[Kevin]

Tim,

- For the main sail tack to mast 1/4" anything should be plenty. I am thinking of using a piece of 1.75mm lash-it with enough for 3 wraps should be plenty. This only needs to counter the outhaul forces as the cunningham will deal with the vertical.
- My outhaul is 3mm spectra with a poly cover added for chafe protection. I have a 6:1 total purchase on the outhaul. 2:1 primary at the clew (just run through the grommet, no block needed) and a 3:1 internal to a clam cleat on the bottom at the forward end of the boom. Seemed to be plenty of power to adjust when needed under load.
- My Cunningham is 4:1. 2:1 primary goes from a block up through one of the holes on the gooseneck, up to the grommet in the sail and then back down through the other hole where it's tied off. Then a split tail secondary doubles the purchase. Jon, I'd recon a cunny would help you depower more when you are single handed. That something I spaced on one heavy day, we fought the boat during the sail, and then I was derigging and it was loose as it could be.
- My main and jib halyards are none stripped 1/4" vectran which doesn't like the sun so much. I would definitely shrink them a size, go with spectra and strip them next time. Just make sure you have gloves for the main if you dial in lots of prebend and are 1:1. Main halyard is 2:1 too with enough tail to reverse the whole line down the road so I'll probably never have to replace it at the rate I'm going.
- Spin halyard is a heat preset polypropylene line. It's plenty strong and has a little give for taking up the shock of a huge puff. It's nubby stuff and again requires gloves or hands of steel. I'd probably do something different next time.
- Spin tack line is stripped 1/4" spectra cored line (NE endura braid I think).It's green for "go". no problems with it yet, but I haven't flown a spin in much wind yet.

Mast is 305" long, jib exit is about 240" as I recall of the top of my head without looking at drawings or the rules. I don't have the exact exit heights but they are staggered between 12" and 20" as I recall. Conservative rigger would only strip to about the mast base as a max or even a little higher to provide a little chafe protection at the mast exit and turning block. You'd have to guestimate your block and cleat location. Note, I moved my turning blocks down to the cabin top instead of being on the mast base to improve the angle to the cleat. It was a bit too much angle and there was some slippage there.

Good luck. Rigging is exciting!!!

Kevin.

[ryderp]

I've used New England Endura Braid for all of my lines - all of it off the sale rack at APS (you have to check every so often because they don't stay on there for long). I didn't use Vectran because of its poor UV resistance. For covered lines this doesn't matter all that much. I didn't know about the durability problem with Vectran, but that's good to know also.

> I used 1/4" for the halyards and the spin tack line. I did strip back the covers and tapered the halyards.
> I've used either 3/8" or 5/16" line for the main sheet, the traveler, and the jib sheets. This is gross overkill from a strength perspective, but I just don't like holding the smaller lines.
> I am going to double-up the jib sheets for next season (2 to 1)
> I jury rigged a Cunningham with a 2 to 1 for the inaugural outings. This worked OK, but I'm probably going to change to a 4 to 1.

Phil

[Tim Ford]

wow, thanks a lot fellers for all the feedback. Just shows to go ya why this is the best gosh darn i550 forum on the planet.

I am in conversation with the riggulator as we speak, so we'll see how it goes.

thanks agin,
--Tom Fird

[Tim Ford]

MORE QUESTIONS! when will they ever stop?
Presusmably, everyone spec'ed their cap shrouds, D1s and headstay. What numbers did you use? I'm thinking you spec'ed the headstay shorter than "I," for example, as the stem fitting, shackle and turnbuckle are going to cut into the overall length. I have nothing for caps and D1's, cant find it on i550.org.

I'm going with synthetic rigging and lashings and it this case it doesn't need to be exact. Just need ballparks.

thanks, --tf

[Chad]

The other guys with wire ordered theirs long, cut to length in place, and used Hayn or similar mechanical terminals on the bottom end, as I recall.

Here's mine, using turnbuckles for the I-point shrouds but an under-deck setup for the forestay:

Forestay:
5mm dux
top: Antal 14mm (for static lashing to t-hook)
bottom: Antal 14mm
BP-BP = 262"

(2) Shrouds:
5mm dux
top: Antal 14mm (for static lashing to t-hook)
bottom: Colligo line terminator
BP-BP = 248"

I have a 4-6" lashing at the top, to the t-hooks.

I'm planning to add some D1's using some 3mm Marlow D12 Max78, BP-BP = 128", but haven't gotten around to it. Winter, and all...

My caps are different than yours, so their length is of no use. Also, my lower spreaders may be longer, which would change the shroud length. I wouldn't use another boat's numbers except for ordering the right number of feet of line...

I'd figure out a way to stand up the mast and measure in place, or mock something up where you can measure things on the mast resting on some sawhorses- use a spreader board with a post to replicate the geometry of your cabin and chainplates...

[Kevin]

I have SS wire shrouds and forestay at this time.

forestay is 5/32" 19x1 wire. Homemade 12:1 purchase replaces a turnbuckle for the 2013 season to make it adjustable.
Shrouds are 1/8" 19x1 wire.
Lowers are 1/8" 19x1 wire. They are moving from at the spreaders down to just above the gnav gooseneck for 2013. This is to control vang sheeting loads that push the mast out of column (to the side) and put a max on lower mast bend in general. If you use a traveler than you can leave them up higher.

I used hi-mod compression studs into the turnbuckles at the bottom and swaged t-balls at the top. Jeff's setup is similar. I believe Ron had swaged wire shrouds put together. I can measure what I have this evening for reference. If you are going with single spreader setup than we should be close to.

As Chad is doing, use of a lashing at the upper end will allow for sizing each more exactly. I'm a big fan of lash-it (yes you can brummel splice 1.75mm lash-it with the right tools that cost less then a buck). Not sure how Chad is connecting the lower end colligo terminator to the turnbuckle. That was one of the pieces of the puzzle that wasn't well sorted out when I looked into this back in 2009. I like the rope shrouds idea and will consider it for my next setup (but that's a ways off).

[Tim Ford]

Thanks Kevin, I was unclear, I'm sorry...I was talking about lengths!
Yes, single spreader and we will use the Colligo terminators. The issue with DUX is the soft bends at the end to retain optimal load strengths. The terminators ain't cheap, but no one I know suggests any lower cost options as far as I can tell.

[Chad]

Not sure how Chad is connecting the lower end colligo terminator to the turnbuckle.

I just used one of Colligo's regular line terminators, inserted into the jaw of a jaw/jaw turnbuckle. I had to open the jaw a little, and buy slightly longer clevis pins. I'll edit this with pics tomorrow....

Line terminator, for bottom end at turnbuckle:
http://www.colligomarine.com/Colligo-Sy ... -Black.htm

Ronstan open body jaw/jaw turnbuckle:
http://www.apsltd.com/gallerypopup.aspx?GalleryID=1528
(I think it was Phil that used StaMasters, but I don't think they'd work with rope or the available end fittings)

And I used 14mm Antal low friction rings at the top, for lashing to a t-hook:
http://www.apsltd.com/c-583-low-friction-rings.aspx

1/8" t-ball bails (bottom of page):
http://www.apsltd.com/c-926-t-ballfitti ... hooks.aspx

Edit to add pics:
1/8" cap shrouds, using a sailmaker's eye and lashing:

IMG_0840.JPG

Forestay and I-point shrouds, using 14mm ferrule and lashing:

IMG_0838.JPG

Bottom of I-point shrouds with turnbuckle:

IMG_0834.JPG

[Kevin]

I can measure what I have this evening for reference. If you are going with single spreader setup than we should be close.

As promised above...
Forestay 269.5"
Uppers 269" and 268" (yes the rig looks pretty funny if they get switched).
Lowers 141" and 140.5" (closer than the uppers).
These are pin center to t-ball bearing point. Rig was last stepped at it's most raked position (so forestay as long as I would go and shroud at their shortest).

FYI, the chainplate design I made will accomodate the 1/4" chainplate distributors from Colligo if you want to go lashings instead of turnbuckles. Glad that Chad found a turnbuckle that would fit around the Colligo line terminator, with persuasion. That was an unresolved issue back in 2009. I've read lots about Dux and almost went this route on my boat, but punted to wire with a desire to not be inventing the wheel on this front along with all the other things I was trying to figure out.

Cheers, Kevin.