new to I550 questions

[Armac909]

Hi,

Had a read of the rules, it seems that a rotating/canting mast would be legal? As would a wing mast?

Or possible that I missed that section, or read the wrong rules?

Thanks,

Rob

[Chad]

Yep, legal as the rules are currently written. Mast chord is also free sail area. Might be debatable if a wing sail is legal, given the wording of the girth and boom lengths "from the mast".

The two US-based classes are in early days, with very little OD racing done so far. Your call as to how far to go without "getting noticed" and bringing on a rule change. Compared to the wild west of a few years ago, both classes have cracked down on lightweight hulls, and this class has further narrowed the allowable deviations from the plan set regarding rudder location, cabin size, hull shape, and sail limits. So far nobody here has proposed any further rig restrictions, but there is a healthy dose of "straight ahead" type builders here. I'm hoping by being extra nice, folks will be reluctant to ban my oddities (joke!), but I expect a few things I've done might not meet the "good of the class" idea, eventually. And some things just won't work...

That said, these are the best group of folks I've seen in the Internet world of boatbuilding, and that counts for more than perfect rules agreement.

[Kevin]

Hi Rob.

I'll just say that I think there are limits to how practical a canting mast or a wing anything will be. The one thing to keep in mind is that this boat is 4 feet wide at the chines. That is a pretty narrow platform to balance on. If you sail in totally awesome smooth water, than that should be easy. But if you deal with any serious wave motion or chop on a regular basis, than added weight aloft may quickly become a liability and canting could be impractical.

I am also not here to tell you that you can't do something, the whole point to the i550 is to make it what you want first and foremost. For example, one thing Chad did with most of his cant/tilt/rotating tweaks is provide a way to center them for class racing. And yellow canary has a fin keel that fully retracts so it can be beached. I'm betting there are a dozen other boats that I don't know about with all kinds of interesting tweaks and ideas built in. It's about fun first.

Is every boat legal? I don't know. That's something to figure out when we have multiple boats in the same place at the same time and we aren't there yet. We have 2 events we are trying to organized for 2013. With luck both events will happen. And then this class will be in a position to take a big step forward. I hope that our first discussion is not about what to make illegal. But that's a bridge we will cross when we get there. Right now, I'm just trying to get my boat in the water this year. That's a big enough goal for the time being.

Cheers and welcome.

Kevin.

p.s. Where are you located?

[Armac909]

Thanks for the replys (sic) guys.

It strikes me that there seems to be two paths here, a relatively loose one design class and a development class. The first is pretty straightforward and attractive to those with a one design upbringing, and certainly desired by vendors of hulls and boats. The development edge is interesting to those who gotta put their innovations into the boat -I read through your blog Chad . I wonder if the way to go there might be an Open 550 based on the box and weights described by the existing rule, keeping the boat wood, but opening up the hull shape? OD I550's would qualify as would anything else that fit the box, weights, and rules.

Kevin, I'm located in very upstate NY, on Lake Champlain. There's a local build if an I550 going on (Craig Stay), which I haven't taken a look at yet. My interest in the boat is the desire to see sailboat racing become more broad-based and accessible to those with moderate budgets, which an OD I550 fills nicely. An Open 550 might be a different beast.

Rob

[Tim Ford]

The rules thing has been a journey. I'm not sure if it didn't just evolve into differences in personality as much as dimensions, sail plans and systems.

At any rate, this board has grown into a group of builders who help one another out, support the community of builders and do not snipe at one another for the purpose of macho posturing. With almost 3,000 posts to the forums, I'm really happy to be a part of this community and proud that it has grown into a network of friends.

I'd be happy to race Chad in whatever weapon he decides to bring to the knife fight! So build whatever you think best suits your purposes, Rob!!!

[cstay]

Hey Rob,
Really stoked there is a local guy interested in the build. Where do you live up here? Also your welcome to come check out my build anytime you want. If you decide on taking on this project i will defiantly give you a hand. Also for the bulb pour i still have all my gear and have done a few pours since mine.

[Armac909]

Tim,

I think the reason this board is so supporting has to be that to get an I550 you pretty much have to build one-there's not a large base of finished boats for sale. So you've got a bunch of folks that are good with their hands, understand materials-build stuff instead of tearing it down.

Has anyone looked at cooperative community or club finance and build systems to grow the class and local sailing base?

Craig, I saw you the other night at the Witchcraft party. I'm not so interested in building a boat-as you know I've already got a project going, but am interested in supporting a progressive class that can appeal to folks without a lot of bucks but performance oriented. I think there may be an untapped demographic out there that things like Solings (our dominant local OD class for other readers) won't attract due to their stodgy, low performance nature, not mention the inability to ramp launch, a completely stupid keel, and so on.

Rob McDowell

[cstay]

Ahhh i was all excited thinking had a new builder on the hook up here. If you want to build me a wing for mine i would be glad to test it for ya

[Armac909]

Let's build a carbon mast instead.....

[Armac909]

Ok, so in looking further, I found the other set of rules, the I550na ones.

In terms of building the hull it seems that about anything goes as long as dimensions and weights are maintained-right?

Still have to buy a set of Watershed plans to get a number, but they won't get weird if the materials and build are different than the plans and refuse to validate the number?

Thanks,

Rob

[Chad]

Thanks for the replys (sic) guys.

It strikes me that there seems to be two paths here, a relatively loose one design class and a development class. The first is pretty straightforward and attractive to those with a one design upbringing, and certainly desired by vendors of hulls and boats. The development edge is interesting to those who gotta put their innovations into the boat -I read through your blog Chad . I wonder if the way to go there might be an Open 550 based on the box and weights described by the existing rule, keeping the boat wood, but opening up the hull shape? OD I550's would qualify as would anything else that fit the box, weights, and rules.

Kevin, I'm located in very upstate NY, on Lake Champlain. There's a local build if an I550 going on (Craig Stay), which I haven't taken a look at yet. My interest in the boat is the desire to see sailboat racing become more broad-based and accessible to those with moderate budgets, which an OD I550 fills nicely. An Open 550 might be a different beast.

Rob

Pretty much everybody involved wants to see pretty tight rules on the hull shapes- it's the thing we spend the most time building, and nobody wants their hull obsoleted by a boat that's been straightened/fattened or something. I think that gives a hull vendor some protection as well, if there ever was one to step forward. Regrettably this hasn't happened, and with Ron's boat sitting for sale at $6k (about what his two sets of sails cost, i imagine) for a long while now it doesn't appear that we have a strong market to sell into. Oh, well.

There's some folks around Tasmania that agreed as a group to build a bunch of boats within their club, so it can happen. I think this boat needs an active racing circuit (which we're working on), and then, later, a low cost builder to supply hulls once the self-build pool dries up. I know the design owners have had lots of nibbles from folks discussing group builds, but that seems a tough nut to crack.

The NA rules aren't clear to me- when we proposed that hull panels be cut to the plans as a first order protection of the hull shape, they refused. We definitely have a more robust "from the plans" rule. We require plywood, they don't. Neither class is in a position to enforce anything though- if your favorite glass builder spit out twenty hulls for your club, you'd basically have the biggest collection of boats anywhere and therefore the right to name your own rules and class.

[Armac909]

Chad,

Thanks for putting things in perspective. There are two versions of rules for the same dimensions and weights in North America. I assume that due to a limited amount of boats sailing that they will end up racing together as a single class. If so then the least restrictive and most inclusive rule becomes the default.

What I'm looking to build is a community based sailing organization that promotes the possibilities of personal growth through the skills learned in building, sailing, and racing boats. The I550 might be the boat for that program especially if it gains momentum in NA after the current crop of builds hit the water. The advantage then would be referential to an existing culture of creativity, skill, and performance.

Thanks again,

Rob

[M&S]

Watershed has had a few nibbles about individual and club group builds. One of which turned out to be not a nibble but a shark attack which we avoided to keep the design under control.

Out of respect for all the builders who have had the fortitude to build an i550 we (watershed) will keep the design measurements stable. We are also thrilled that a nucleus of builders has formed into a social network of supportive idea generating enthusiasts. The growth of the i550 is perhaps more dependent on the group's collective personality than it is upon the boat being the ultimate boat of any size. It is not. That being said, it is a very good convergence of materials, size, shape, cost and performance.

It is a good boat.

We thank you. We will continue to promote the boat.

Tim & Susan

[Armac909]

Tim and Susan,

Thanks for the statement. So, as design owner, you endorse both sets of rules?

Rob

[slowpoke]

[quote="Armac909"]Chad,
If so then the least restrictive and most inclusive rule becomes the default.
Rob[/quote"]

Then you must plan on racing under the i550 class.org rules, as the NA rules only allow for a 5 inch bowsprit!

P.s. Yes, I'm prejudiced, as the NA guys didn't allow for anyone in central or south America, or europe, asia, australia, etc., etc.

[Armac909]

Yeah, and you know how guys optimistically measure their sprits.......

[Kevin]

Well, we are generally nice people who all get along with each other. That's a plus.

IMHO, if you already have a local builder who is working to follow the i550 class rules (those posted here on i550class.org) then it would make sense to follow suit. If the local guy was following the i550na rules, then that would be the direction you would go. The i550na rules are looser and I feel that would lead to a more expensive program for owners in the long run. No one want's obsolete hulls gathering dust. That's why we as a group are trying to build hulls to the plans and that is what is in our rules.

If the North regatta happens, then you'll have 4-5 i550's on Lake Champlain in August 2013. That would be a great opportunity to energize a local building group.

[Armac909]

Being a newbie to the I550, I'm basically unaware of the conflicts other than the rules between the flavors of the I550. If dimensions and weights are the same and honored, when it comes to the race course, do the members of the I550class feel that the I550na boats have a significant advantage? If not what would be wrong with agreeing to disagree and sorting it out on the water?

Tell me more about this North regatta. Would it be in Plattsburgh or Burlington, and when would it be scheduled?

Thanks,

Rob

[Chad]

I don't want to get into a NA slag fest (I could go on all day, somebody hold me back! ), but the NA rules allow a pretty different boat than the one in the plans, to fit their rules. The designer had a go at a NA rules "special" and it didn't look anything like anybody else's. He claimed an extra tenth upwind, or something silly. The designer is pretty out to lunch as far as both classes go though (as far as I can tell, the NA guys don't have much to do with him either, any more).

Other than that one odd duck, the NA guys have built pretty normal boats, except one where they deliberately tweaked it to be flatter fore and aft (less rocker)- the rest have come from the same build jig so should be really close to spec. So speaking for myself, I don't have anything against their boats- just the boats their rule could allow by being so much more open, and their refusal to listen to the overwhelming majority that didn't want a hull-based arms race back when we were all under the same tent trying to hash out a single class.

So a quick comparo of hull rules:
Class /// NA
Hull panels cut to the plans /// hull shape within specs of rules
Max deviation from plan, chine to chine +/- .25" /// +1/-.5"
Hull angle is measured directly /// Hull rise is to point of max beam, with no radius limit to shear, so angle is fudgable at least an inch up or down

Here's a quick comparison of the shape of a bow of a boat built to the limit of the NA rule, versus one built to the plan:

[Kevin]

Rob,

Like Chad, I have no desire to delve too deep into old thoughts and issues on the rift that put us where we are today. However, it's hard to explain the situation fully without some background. Most people in this group worked really hard over the course of 2 years on a class constitution and rule set. For full disclosure, three of the four elected officers of the original class are members here, I was elected Chief Measurer, Jeff Dalsin was elected Secretary, Tim Ford was elected Treasurer and ,for good measure, Chad was a member of the technical committee. There was a lot of work done in good faith to accomodate everyone worldwide with one common class rule back in 2008-09. At the end of the day, the i550na group, in Portland OR mostly, were not willing to come to agreement and everything fell apart. That's why there are technically 3 rule sets, the AU boats sail under a trailer sailor rule, the i550na rules and the i550class rules. My position was, and still is, that it's best to protect builders from hull development by building hulls to the plans while allowing freedom on just about every other part of the boat within the originally published dimensions and reasonable contraints. As a home built boat the build times vary, some take 9 months and some take 4+ years. If hull development is allowed by the rules then the guy taking 3 years will have a v1 boat when others could have v3 or v4 boats. This was not acceptable to myself or a majority of other builders.

Is there any advantage to a boat built to the different rules? I have no idea at. There has not been enough side by side sailing to know if a i550class boat is at a great disadvantage to a i550na boat. I believe that in the long run, the more open rule of i550na is not in the classes best interests because it can and will make older boats obsolete over time by allowing hull development. And that will push people away from the i550 to other boats instead of bringing them into the i550.

That, in a nut shell, is how we ended up where we, why it is the way it is, and who we on this forum are. It's my hope that when builders choose to go forward with any i550 project that they will choose to be part of this group first and build to the i550class rules second. Regardless of rule choice, my focus is on getting out and sailing my boat and helping others do the same.

Cheers, Kevin.

P.S. See the North regatta thread for info. I don't know where on the lake this was proposed. I just know it's a 16 hour drive 1 way for me to the general area. At this time, I'm planning to go if Chad and Tim are both planning on going and I believe the 2nd weekend in August was the last date discussed.
http://i550class.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=204

[Marino]

Hoping to organize the i550 North Regatta at Mimico Crusing Club in Toronto, Canada on lake Ontario.
Got some info together at this time and need to approach the club for assistance and info.
Haven't been able to do more presently for I have been working in Northern Ontario. Heading home and get back on it.
Will keep everyone posted.

[Chad]

Marino, I'd favor Toronto over New York from a drive point of view (16 vs. 22 hours), but we're (I'm) not asking you to get something official going with your club. From the other thread, I think we're just planning an informal get together with as many boats as we can gather. Realizing you postponed your plans for this year, I don't want you trying to rework your club calendar after it's been set, etc. Don't read into our plans that we're now depending on you, after earlier telling you "next year"!

[M&S]

Tim and Susan,

Thanks for the statement. So, as design owner, you endorse both sets of rules?

Rob

Watershed endorses the Class.org rule set.

The hulls should be built to a set of rules without cutesy loopholes. Protection of the 'as designed' shape is paramount.
There are enough variables to sort out during the infancy of this class without adding hull shape to the mix.

foils sails masts thats plenty to sort out at this time.

Chad's pictures of the hull bottom shapes in a previous post point up the hollows induced in the hull bottom panels as the shape was tortured to twist severely in the forward-most sections. the hull was designed to not have intentional hollows.

Warmest Regards
Tim

Best Regards,
Tim

[Chad]

Chad's pictures of the hull bottom shapes in a previous post point up the hollows induced in the hull bottom panels as the shape was tortured to twist severely in the forward-most sections. the hull was designed to not have intentional hollows.

Don't know about hollows in the pic, I was trying to highlight the way our chine to chine rule works, versus a boat that exploits the other rule by dropping the centerline/raising the chine at the bow and getting a whole bunch more V than the plans. It's most dramatic and visible here at the bow, but the same exploitation applied throughout the hull bottom will have a definite change in boat speed or moding (better for light versus heavy air, less OD).

[Tim Ford]

Maybe it's me but I cannot figure out the top picture. Looks like an enormous scoop, to me...or is the top of the (inverted) V the far edge? it this like a deep V hull and we are only seeing half of it? the starboard side half of it (starboard, as the boat sits naturally, in the water)?

where did the foto come from?