new to I550 questions

[Chad]

Seeing the inverted bow. Same as 2nd pic, but left not right. I know, the geometry is so foreign, it's unrecognizable as an i550!

Don't want to make this about "him", so keeping his name out of it. He's the less benign of the two crazies we've had former dealings with...

[Tim Ford]

Just two?

[Chad]

Good point!
-if I add "served classwith C&D notice", does that make it more clear?

[Armac909]

This controversy must be pretty disconcerting to potential builders-it's got me in a critical mode in evaluating the I550 as a potential boat for a community build and sail program. From my perspective both sets of rules have their flaws, and it doesn't appear that there is a solution on the horizon.

The common flaw I see in both rules is too much room for development in terms of rigs, sails, and rig mobility.

Additionally the NA rule allows too much hull variation through looser tolerances, and doesn't mandate a bulb (by my reading of the rule).

The Class.org rule mandates the use of plywood which eliminates the possibility of migration toward solid wood composite or cored glass boats and also disallows the no cabin version of the boat.

Finally, it seems that a lot of builders are spending a fair amount of money on materials and parts, which along with the significant labor input is not making the total cost of getting an I550 to the starting line as affordable as it might be. In a cultural sense I think the concept -roll your own sport boat-is amazing and sorely needed in the current conservative sailing world. IMO you guys, the NA guys, and Watershed need to get in a room, lock the door, and not leave until you have a consensus rule, the boat, and the builders out there need it.

Thanks for your help in helping me understand what the I550 is about.

Rob

[Tim Ford]

Good point!
-if I add "served classwith C&D notice", does that make it more clear?

Crystal!!!

[ryderp]

If I were to do a community (volume) build that stays within the class.org rules, I would probably:
> Create a jig to hold all of the frames, stern, and bow-stem upside down
> Add the reinforcing around the keel section, the keel box, and the stringers and the shear to the frames prior to adding the hull panels
> Scarf together plywood for the hull panels before cutting them to shape - cut all panels from a single template or better yet use a CNC Machine. It would be possible to pre-round the chines and to pre-drill the holes for the cable ties on the hull panels and on the frames.
> tie everything down with cable ties and then tack the frames to the hull panels with spots of epoxy and glass
> Remove the ties and glass and vacuum bag the hull. Fair as necessary and prime the hull before flipping it over
> flip the hull, filet and glass all of the joints, add the chainplate gussets (pre-cut to size and pre-drilled for the hold
> Create a mold for the deck and cabin - probably using a foam core construction - pre drilled and reinforced for deck hardware

I could go on, but the basic idea is to build it like a production boat with standardized parts (keel, keel bulb, rudder, prod, rig, etc) and production methodology. For a community build I would personally go with a low cost spar (aluminum) and sails.

I agree with everyone else on the forum, that the key is to have standardized hull shape. Everything else can be changed by the individual owner of the boat, but the part of the boat that touches the water can't be easily modified.

Phil

[Chad]

Rob,
I think everybody here agrees with most of what you say, and that the class fragmentation is the worst possible way to present this boat to new builders. I'm sure there are lots of things that some people would do differently given a do-over. But today we are where we are, I expect there will be a twilight period for a while as one or both classes gain a footing and eventually different people will reach out to each other. Already there are several new people involved here that weren't part of the original discussion, maybe that will slowly happen at NA as well. For now, all we can do is go sail the boats and have fun and welcome anybody new to do the same.

[noemar]

This conversation is starting to get confusing. Not sure where my build fits in. I started out with plans and then tyvek templates from Watershed and have been adhering as close as possible to the tyveks. The only changes I made were to make the transom beefier,bottom panels are made up of two layers of 3/16" plywood and the bowsprit will exit out the center of the bow. I also will be using a keel stepped Viper 640 tin rig and sails that I bought as a package deal. I will see where this takes me and make adjustments later.Being that there are not any boat reasonbly close byI shouln't have any complaints.

[Kevin]

Not sure where my build fits in.

Sounds like a i550class legal boat in the making to me. Current rules don't limit bottom panel thickness so the doubled 3/16" shouldn't be an issue. No rules against a keel stepped rig. The viper rig geometry is very close to my single spreader rig measuring from the top down. You'll want to stick with a fractional kite unless you add 2nd spreaders and shrouds to the masthead.

The i550class rules were written to preserve the hull shape and limit the rig size in relationship to the hull. That's the underlying principle that was followed when written. Are there other things in them that go beyond that? Yes. Are they perfect? No. Should some revisions be discussed? Probably. Can we actually change the rules if we wanted to? Technically no, I don't think so. Should we document ideas and thoughts for changes? Probably, so new builders are stymied by contradictions.

2 years ago we needed to get boats on the water and go from there. Today we may be finally getting to the point where we can have productive conversations and move forward as a class. We have to approach that process carefully.

[Mist]

Carefully, Yes indeed! It's so easy to light another fuse and have another meltdown. Let's get sailing and then figure things out. We'll be in a better mode with some sailing time behind us. -Tim

[Tim Ford]

better mode AND better mood.
I'm not even sure my boat will measure in....it's pretty weird.

I sure woud like to sail it one day....

[Chad]

I'm not going to engage Joe in a public scorched earth debate on SA, but he's been fed some BS and is spreading it around. I'm pretty sure this is the post he's talking about (mine, quoted below), suggesting I invented the idea that Elroy was an undesirable possibility within the NA rule set. I got the idea straight from Chris' blog, here:

http:slashslashi550elroy.blogspot.com/2012/05/can-i-come-play-with-you.html
(Replace the "slash"es with //)

So maybe Chris lied (imagine!), or maybe Joe now thinks Elroy doesn't measure. I don't know, don't care, but I certainly didn't invent the idea that Elroy was a NA legal boat.

I don't want to get into a NA slag fest (I could go on all day, somebody hold me back! ), but the NA rules allow a pretty different boat than the one in the plans, to fit their rules. The designer had a go at a NA rules "special" and it didn't look anything like anybody else's. He claimed an extra tenth upwind, or something silly. The designer is pretty out to lunch as far as both classes go though (as far as I can tell, the NA guys don't have much to do with him either, any more).

Other than that one odd duck, the NA guys have built pretty normal boats, except one where they deliberately tweaked it to be flatter fore and aft (less rocker)- the rest have come from the same build jig so should be really close to spec. So speaking for myself, I don't have anything against their boats- just the boats their rule could allow by being so much more open, and their refusal to listen to the overwhelming majority that didn't want a hull-based arms race back when we were all under the same tent trying to hash out a single class.

So a quick comparo of hull rules:
Class /// NA
Hull panels cut to the plans /// hull shape within specs of rules
Max deviation from plan, chine to chine +/- .25" /// +1/-.5"
Hull angle is measured directly /// Hull rise is to point of max beam, with no radius limit to shear, so angle is fudgable at least an inch up or down

Here's a quick comparison of the shape of a bow of a boat built to the limit of the NA rule, versus one built to the plan:

NA special.jpeg

Per plan.jpeg

[DavidD]

I"m new to the forum despite having plans in my bottom drawer for the last 3years and finally got over the inertia and started. I'm moving house soon so I can't start the hull but there,s plenty to do in the meantime. Lead for the keel has been melted down and cleaned up and the mold and plug is ready to go. Next ill move onto the foils. I figure that I will get through until Xmas that way.

On the rules: I don't know much about rules. I'm not building it to race in any regattas but if I end up twilighting then that will be good. I'll probably build it with bits and pieces I can find so whether it meats the criteria will be another thing. All I care about is that you guys seem like a helpful and friendly bunch and I look forward to the build and interacting with people on the other side of the globe who will probably provide me with heaps of advice. That's all it's about to me.

About ten years ago I sailed on Cone of Silence in her first regatta after she was launched. It was an amazing regatta and we literally won everything. Another skipper, expressing disappointment that his regatta hadn't gone so well, asked the builder (who was part of the crew) if he would build him a boat. The builder replied "sailing takes me to new places all the time and I get to meet new people - what more can you ask for?" I've never forgotten that. It's just a shame that there are people in the sailing fraternity who do forget.

I'm in Australia so it doesn't concern me but I respect that you guys are trying to keep the i550 the "people,s boat". Well done.

David

[Tim Ford]

Thanks for joining US! Always great to have another like-minded soul on this board. I got started back in 2008 and it seems like a long time ago. Paradoxically, as I approach being finished, I wonder what the heck I'm going to do when there isn't going to be a boat in the back yard to fiddle with!

Guess I'll have to go all Tokyo and look at the 6.5 plans...the wife will LOVE that....

[slowpoke]

Tim, one of the problems inherent with owning a boat is that it is never truly finished. There is always that little tweak to do, that upgrade to put on, and don't forget the repairs! You'll always have "that boat in the backyard" in a way!

[Tim Ford]

You speak the truth, Rocky....as you always do!

[Marino]

If there is anyone building a i550 in Canada and wants to get something going or be able to help each other in some way, PM me.
I live in Toronto.

Marino

[Railsailor]

I'm starting on Hull 513 this fall. I currently reside in Quebec (employer's decision) but travel to TO often on business. I'll touch base with you as soon as I start making sawdust...
Cheers!

Peter
Railsailor - hull 513.