Deck & cabin options

[Eric]

Hello,
I'm Eric, from Hong Kong.
I am considering to built an I550, but I whish to have a few information.
On the order page, it is mentionned that there are several configurations for the deck and cabin, wide or narrow deck, half or full cabin... What does it means in metric terms? Basically, I whish to have a cockppit where three persons can race, or more can enjoy a sail, and a cabin big enough for two people to sleep, or to store some material.
On the presentation of the boat, I have found some construction times quite short, like 200 hours, or 400 hours. I think it is a little optimistic, isn't it? How much time have you spent to put the hull and deck together, and be happy with the result?
Thanks, and have fun on the water,
Éric

[Tim Ford]

Hi Eric, I have the "long cockpit/short cabin trunk" version. You can see pictures of it here: http://nbayracing.com/i550Build.htm

I think this version is what you are after. It sails with 3 crew, could put a 4th on board if you wanted. Room below to stretch out and store stuff. I have been working on the interior since I flipped the boat over last weekend and can take some photos of what it is like down below later today.

And yes, I think 400 hours is a bit conservative!

tf

[ryderp]

Eric,

Like Tim, I have the long cockpit version. Mine has a "wide" cockpit, but I curved the sides to align with the cabin. In any case, there is a lot of flexibility in the designs. Here is a photo of the boat tied up at the dock:

Boat at Doc.jpg

[slowpoke]

Hi Eric,
I'm building the short cockpit version, I decided to go with it because it was the original plan. Even so, the cabin is small and somewhat cramped for a large person (i'm close to 2 meters tall, and 90 kilos). But there is room to move around a little while sitting down or kneeling, and lots of leg room to lay down. If you plan on camping, you will probably spend most of your time in the cockpit, and just sleep down below. 400 hours does seem a little shy of what it really takes, but I think a lot of it has to do with how you work, what quality level you set yourself, and your beer count!

[lohwaikin]

Eric,

I am in Singapore and building the half-cabin wide cockpit version A4.
I chose this version because I prefer to have the keel-box outside of the cabin.
Really not much cabin space with this configuration.
But the open cockpit is really wide enough for 4 adults to play mahjong...

I started in April 2012 working 3 hours for almost 5 out of 7 days a week (OK, I had about 3 weeks worth of vacation and overseas work trips since then....).
Now I am just about to flip the boat back to upright, having given up on trying to achieve a gloss and smooth bottom coat using just rollers.
I'm still left with:
- casting the bulb and mating it with the keel,
- topcoat and non-slip paint for the top half,
- rudder cassette (shape is up, yet to glass & paint),
- stainless steel parts (chain-plate, forestay, mast-step, gooseneck, mast-head, outhaul fitting, rudder hardware,hiking strap anchors, keel top),
- the mast (which I have undertook to build one out of wood, 30% through and slapping myself...)
- installing standing and running riggings

One building note: You may want to redesign your own cabin top to be easier with plywood, or strip-plank it like Phil's #381. My first though about quitting started there.....

Cheers,

[slowpoke]

Loh, have you tried tipping the paint with a dry brush after rolling?

[lohwaikin]

Rocky,
Thanks for asking.
That's what I did for the 3rd top-coat.
The roller mohairs start dropping out 10 minutes into the process.
The tipping brush couldn't sweep them away, nor press them down.
I am in the process of sanding it down again with 220 grit, to remove the mohairs and diminish those "orange-peel" effect caused by rolling.
Then I'll brush on one more coat with a seriously thinned down mix, and pray.
I was being advised by a marine structural painter that on our tropical island with >90% humidity the 2-part paint's viscosity rises pretty fast.
I am fine with an uneven or less glossy surface, but I cannot accept those dirt-catching mohairs stuck on the topcoat.
I still cannot find foam rollers that can survive the PU paint.

Cheers,

[micah202]

Eric,

Like Tim, I have the long cockpit version. Mine has a "wide" cockpit, but I curved the sides to align with the cabin. In any case, there is a lot of flexibility in the designs. Here is a photo of the boat tied up at the dock:

Boat at Doc.jpg

...wow,,,for a second I thought that was my boat!! ,,,dark hull,,long cockpit,,alloy mast!!!...very close to sister-ships!!

.....I actually changed from a long cabin to a short cabin,long cockpit.....the reason?...weight too far back in boat with long cabin,,,stern drags in water......if you want to race,,I'd suggest you might want the same,,unless everyone's dragging their stern!
....I'd also suggest it's a BIG safety bonus to have the keel-trunk outside of the cabin!!!

[Kevin]

I'm a big fan of the wide long cockpit, maybe that's because I was the one who first decided that was a good idea. There's a big difference in the pit area. Note the 2 pictures attached. Both boats are beating in light wind and trying to heal to leeward to reduce wetted surface area and keep sail shape. Ron and crew are to leeward and see how far the forward crew is from the gunwale. Jeff is to windward opposite of crew to leeward who is hiked out to the rail and could easily go out further if needed. Also note their knuckles, the boats not the helmsman. Ron is out, Jeff is in. Jeff won the race even though Ron had a unmodified m20 chute which is totally massive on an articulating pole.

DSC_6153.JPG

DSC_6161.JPG

Note... Jeff built Alchemy in a similar configuration to mine, PipeDream. The only difference between Alchemy and PipeDream is mainsheet setup and paint color (and maybe chine shape). Ron built his boat with the long cockpit version with cabin to the original plans with a narrow pit area. His cabin top was destroyed when his compression post gave way cruising down wind in 20 plus with that big kite up. In order to make our regatta he lopped off what was left of the cabin and replaced it with flat deck. His crew did not go forward of the companion way at frame 110. He did not rebuild his cockpit sides.

[Eric]

Hello,
Thanks for all your answwer. I understand that a short cabin offers better crew placement, and that the boat doesn't drag as much water. (But why do the boats keep their engines on their transom?) Since I plan to race the boat, short cabin may be my choice.
Lohwaikin, I believe that Singapore may be as humid as here in Hong Kong. How will you deal with condensation in remote places of your boat? Epoxy coating is safe enough?
Thanks again,
Éric

[Kevin]

Eric,
On the engines hanging on the back... In Australia they race the i550 under a trailer sailor rule that requires the motor to be in "deployable" position. In the pictures I posted, I have no idea why they left the motors on the back. Mine was stowed forward of frame 89 where I keep it most of the time.

I think 2 coats of epoxy will do a great job of sealing the interior of your boat to protect it from condensation. If you don't paint the interior then it is also very easy to see if your coating is failing at any point. So far, I've had no issues like that to deal with. You would probably also want to avoid any sealed compartments and instead use buoyancy bags for positive floatation.

[Tim Ford]

test reply

[micah202]

Hello,
Thanks for all your answwer. I understand that a short cabin offers better crew placement, and that the boat doesn't drag as much water. (But why do the boats keep their engines on their transom?) Since I plan to race the boat, short cabin may be my choice.
Lohwaikin, I believe that Singapore may be as humid as here in Hong Kong. How will you deal with condensation in remote places of your boat? Epoxy coating is safe enough?
Thanks again,
Éric

...in my area,,motor placement depends on a couple of things,,,,,in handicap racing,,I believe the rules require the motor to be in deployable position,,,,but One Design allows us to stow motors while racing,,,,or not take them out at all at a lake event.....I generally consult with the other boats as to the approach for the day.

....SEALING THE INTERIOR........there's specifically formulated -EPOXY-SEALER- for SEALING wood,,,,it's much lower viscosity,,so penetrates and MUCH more effectively SEALS the wood........I wish I heard a few more people suggesting this here,,,it's certainly worth the few extra buck$ investment.....it's too easy to have porosity when using bonding resins to do a sealant's job!!!

[Chad]

I thought "penetration" was over-rated, one of those old timey myths based on comparison to observations of oil-based finishes? Mils of epoxy is what provides the protection, and "on top" would seem to put the water barrier further from the wood surface. That's how the epoxy wonks explained it to me, anyway...

[micah202]

I thought "penetration" was over-rated, one of those old timey myths based on comparison to observations of oil-based finishes? Mils of epoxy is what provides the protection, and "on top" would seem to put the water barrier further from the wood surface. That's how the epoxy wonks explained it to me, anyway...

......-maybe- that penetration isn't necessary,,,but to roll or brush a laminating resin under 'home-shop' conditions is -asking- for trouble,,even with 2 coats apparently**

...** I base this finding on what I found inside carbon offset's hull ,,was darn lucky to catch the dark,punky bits early!!
take a look.... http://www.flickr.com/photos/59103003@N ... 139820618/

...if you're going to use laminating resin to seal the wood,,I'd suggest using a rubber spreader,and really -work- the resin into the surface,and do 2 applications,,,leaving a full,thick coating,,,,,but really the sealer is designed to do the job much more effectively,,,,not to mention lighter.

[Eric]

Micah202,
May you please check your link? I arrive on an "not found" page
After having problems with mushrooms, white ants and mildew on a boat mainly made of plastic, I want to be very carrefull and, yes, no sealed compartments, and maniac inspection. The good thing about (one good thing about) the I550, is that this is a single skin boat, easy to inspect.
Éric

[micah202]

Micah202,
May you please check your link? I arrive on an "not found" page
After having problems with mushrooms, white ants and mildew on a boat mainly made of plastic, I want to be very carrefull and, yes, no sealed compartments, and maniac inspection. The good thing about (one good thing about) the I550, is that this is a single skin boat, easy to inspect.
Éric

...fixed the link for you!.... http://www.flickr.com/photos/59103003@N ... 139820618/

...go down a couple of rows to find the punk-shots ,,,the later pics are above...m
....

[lohwaikin]

Eric,

I haven't really thought about condensation...
In Singapore, the nights are hot, the days are hotter, so condensation is not so frequent.
Having said that, I have epoxied the inside of all my hull panels by at least one coat, followed by 2 coats of primer on all inside surfaces before gluing on the decks.
My cockpit deck panel is glassed underneath.
The surfaces in the "living space" are coated with epoxy primer.
The berth floorboards are glassed and coated with primer
I intend to dry-sail my boat, and it will be stored in a hangar-style boat shelter in the marina (in Singapore you cannot park your boat outside your house...).

My berth floor is fully covered from frame F53 until F169, with 270 liters of polyfoam sealed underneath.
My intention of having full berth floor is to encourage water that managed to get into the cabin to make their way unobstructed towards the transom area, where I opened an inspection hatch to dry things up on land.

Cheers,

[micah202]

Loh ,,,, there's a big difference in the condensation of old single-skinned FG hulls and cored boats,,a ply/glass skin will be good.

.....it sounds like you've done a fine job sealing with epoxy and primer,,,and the stern hatch will allow great drying of any moisture in the hull.

...it's rare a home-build turns out -perfect- as many are picking-up skills and knowledge as we go,,but as we learn things as a group,,it's good to share lessons,,and develop some basic standards of what -does- work.....certainly seeing those punky patches in my boat at 1 year was a lesson...I'm glad I caught them in time!

[Kevin]

...if you're going to use laminating resin to seal the wood,,I'd suggest using a rubber spreader,and really -work- the resin into the surface,and do 2 applications,,,leaving a full,thick coating,,,,,but really the sealer is designed to do the job much more effectively,,,,not to mention lighter.

I'm a very big fan of the plastic spreader (they seem to always be yellow) for applying and coating with epoxy. For my first coat of interior panels I mostly used left overs from taping and generally was impressed with how much coverage I got out of that last little bit. I then did a methodical clean up of an interior section (usually between 2 frames) and then 2nd coated the whole area using a spreader. I actually find that I'm faster and control the resin better with a spreader than I can with a brush. So looking back, that 2nd coat would have been better using a 'sealer' resin, but I didn't know any better at the time. And the first coat was a great way to use up already mixed epoxy.

[micah202]

...if you're going to use laminating resin to seal the wood,,I'd suggest using a rubber spreader,and really -work- the resin into the surface,and do 2 applications,,,leaving a full,thick coating,,,,,but really the sealer is designed to do the job much more effectively,,,,not to mention lighter.

I'm a very big fan of the plastic spreader (they seem to always be yellow) for applying and coating with epoxy. For my first coat of interior panels I mostly used left overs from taping and generally was impressed with how much coverage I got out of that last little bit. I then did a methodical clean up of an interior section (usually between 2 frames) and then 2nd coated the whole area using a spreader. I actually find that I'm faster and control the resin better with a spreader than I can with a brush. So looking back, that 2nd coat would have been better using a 'sealer' resin, but I didn't know any better at the time. And the first coat was a great way to use up already mixed epoxy.

....in warmer temperatures,,,you can add ~5% acetone to the mix to help with penetration,,,or hit with some heat

[M&S]

On occasion I have used the Sun to warm a piece for sealing. The trick is to bring it into the shade when you apply the seal coat. As the surface cools the sealer gets sucked down into the surface a bit. Also if you can do panels while they are flat you can use a wide drywall knife (8, 10, 12 inch) to quickly spread a thin layer of the sealer. More efficient use of time and material.
Currently have a 60 year old 16 foot "Wagemaker Wolverine" runabout in my small shop for a complete new deck.

[micah202]

.....or an infrared lamp for those less than ideal situations-heat's the surface rather than air,,so the cure happens from the inside-quite lovely!

....I'm certainly an advocate of doing the sealing on a worktable before assembly---don't think it's quite so important to get a 'primary bond' at the joints

[Eric]

Many thanks for all our info.
One more question.
Is it possible to get cutting files of one version -A4- (I think it is dfx format) for a CNC machine? I could have the plywood cut right here, which could be big help.
Regards,
Éric

[Chad]

I'm pretty sure Watershed has a dxf collection they can provide to you, and certainly the pdf's which are vector-based and can either be deconstructed or imported and accurately traced over/snapped to.

Also, I have "my version" all drawn up (similar to the A4's short cabin wide cockpit, but with a non-ply cabin and curved rather than straight cockpit sides), plus a bunch of weight saving refinements. I've made it freely available to all (license holders) that want it, but I haven't drawn the hull sides or bottom as a protection of Watershed's rights- you'll have to manually draw those two panels from your own plans (or use Watershed's dxf's).

I'd be wary of the long curves generated by a non-naval architecture based program anyway- the splines (nurbs) used by most general cad programs aren't very fair. A long fair batten screwed to the measurement points, carefully sighted and adjusted as needed, and a flush-trim router bit make really quick work of the hull panels...